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How can it be called orthodox if it is not biblical?

ArmyMatt

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The difficulty we (the Orthodox) have with the memorial view is that it is inconsistent with the thrust of every Eucharistic passage except two lines from 1 Corinthians, and even in that passage (1 Cor 11) there are several things that suggest that it isn't purely memorial in its thrust. Nothing says Christ can't be fully present in the Eucharist and have the Eucharist still be a memorial (among other things).

plus the Greek word there that we translate into remember, doesn't mean only remember. it means to make present a past reality and participate in it. so what do we participate in? the real broken Body and spilled Blood of Christ.

anybody remember that word? I can't off the top of my head.
 
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Dorothea

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plus the Greek word there that we translate into remember, doesn't mean only remember. it means to make present a past reality and participate in it. so what do we participate in? the real broken Body and spilled Blood of Christ.

anybody remember that word? I can't off the top of my head.
Oh Thekla...where are you?! :D
 
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Livindesert

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plus the Greek word there that we translate into remember, doesn't mean only remember. it means to make present a past reality and participate in it. so what do we participate in? the real broken Body and spilled Blood of Christ.

anybody remember that word? I can't off the top of my head.

That would be ἀνάμνησις 1) a remembering, recollection


which comes from the root word anamimnēskō

1) to call to remembrance, to remind, to admonish
2) to remember, to remember and weigh well and consider
 
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Livindesert

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My train of thought would be if I believed in real presence then I would think an Icon of Christ could not be made because it would not be the literal body and blood but just wood and paint. To reduce Christ to a drawing would not be on the top of my list.;) How do you guys look at it?
 
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Dorothea

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My train of thought would be if I believed in real presence then I would think an Icon of Christ could not be made because it would not be the literal body and blood but just wood and paint. To reduce Christ to a drawing would not be on the top of my list.;) How do you guys look at it?
Hmm, well we certainly don't look at it that way. :D We look at it as somebody drawing a picture of their relative and hanging it on their wall. It's a likeness of the person, not the person. :) Correct me if I'm wrong, Orthodox friends. :blush:

The icon is different than the Eucharist. :)
 
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HandmaidenOfGod

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My train of thought would be if I believed in real presence then I would think an Icon of Christ could not be made because it would not be the literal body and blood but just wood and paint. To reduce Christ to a drawing would not be on the top of my list.;) How do you guys look at it?

To reject Icons is to reject the Incarnation itself.

Let me put it this way; let's say rather than being born 2000 years ago Christ was born today, in 2009 (soon to be 2010!). Would it be blasphemous for the Magi to use a digital camera to take a picture of the babe in swaddiling clothing? Of course not!

Would it be blasphemous or wrong for the Magi to print the digital picture, frame it, and maybe kiss it affectionately every time they thought of their Lord? No!

Well, unfortunately the digital camera did not exist when Christ was born, so we have icons.

When we kiss icons, we are not honoring the egg tempura and wood that they are made of; we honor what they represent -- whether it be Christ, a Saint, or a scene/parabel from the Bible.

To kiss an icon of Christ is not denying Christ's presence in the Eucharist; it is commemorating and honoring Christ the God-Man. :bow:
 
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HandmaidenOfGod

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plus the Greek word there that we translate into remember, doesn't mean only remember. it means to make present a past reality and participate in it. so what do we participate in? the real broken Body and spilled Blood of Christ.

anybody remember that word? I can't off the top of my head.

The below quote from the Orthodox Church in America explains how the Orthodox Church "remembers" Christ during the Liturgy:
Remembering Christ, and offering all things to God in and through him, the Church is filled with the presence of the Holy Spirit. At the Divine Liturgy, the Holy Spirit comes "upon us and upon the gifts here offered." Everything is filled with the Kingdom of God. In God's Kingdom nothing is forgotten. All is remembered, and is thereby made alive. Thus, at this moment in the Divine Liturgy the faithful, remembering Christ, remember all men and all things in him, especially Christ's mother, the Holy Theotokos, and all of the saints… It is necessary to remember once again that remembrance in the Orthodox Church, and particularly the remembrance of God and by God, has a very special meaning. According to the Orthodox Faith, expressed and revealed in the Bible and the Liturgy, divine remembrance means glory and life, while divine forgetfulness means corruption and death. In Christ, God remembers man and his world. Remembering Christ, man remembers God and his Kingdom. Thus the remembrances of the Divine Liturgy are themselves a form of living communion between heaven and earth.

Furthermore, in every Divine Liturgy, we don’t just remember and commemorate Christ’s death; we remember His entire LIFE. Consider these prayers said during the Epiklesis (where the priest asks the Holy Spirit to come down and transform the gifts):

Priest : Together with these blessed powers, merciful Master, we also proclaim and say: You are holy and most holy, You and Your only begotten Son and Your Holy Spirit. You are holy and most holy, and sublime is Your glory. You so loved Your world that You gave Your only begotten Son so that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. He came and fulfilled the divine plan for us. On the night when He was delivered up, or rather when He gave Himself up for the life of the world, He took bread in His holy, pure, and blameless hands, gave thanks, blessed, sanctified, broke and gave it to His holy disciples and apostles, saying:

Take, eat, this is my Body which is broken for you for the forgiveness of sins.

People: Amen.

Priest : Likewise, after supper, He took the cup, saying:

Drink of it all of you; this is my Blood of the new Covenant which is shed
for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins.

People: Amen.

Priest : Remembering, therefore, this command of the Savior, and all that came to pass for our sake, the cross, the tomb, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the enthronement at the right hand of the Father, and the second, glorious coming...

Now, one may say, “well that’s all well and good, but Christ didn’t REALLY mean it was His body and blood. After all, when He said “I am the door” in John 10:7 He didn’t mean He was a wooden plank!”

And this is true. Christ isn’t a wooden plank. ;) But if you look at the verse of “the door” in context, the Bible tells us that Christ was speaking in allegorical terms.

John 10:6-10 (New King James Version)
6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.
7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came before Me[a] are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

Furthermore, the Church has never inferred that Christ was a door. On the other hand, the Church has always believed that the bread and wine ARE transformed into the body and blood of Christ.

Consider the following quotes from the Early Church Fathers:

"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."
St. Ignatius of Antioch "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.

"This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."
St. Justin Martyr "First Apology", Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.


In Conclusion, partaking of the body and blood of Christ and understanding the meaning of the Eucharist is not just a nice tradition held in the Church, rather it is something that is critical to our salvation.
 
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Livindesert

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That is interesting Handmaiden. It would seem that according to your Liturgy that since you believe in the literal body and blood you are re-crucifying Christ every Sunday instead of remembering Christ's work on the cross done once 2,000 years ago. Is this your belief?
 
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Livindesert

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Consider the following quotes from the Early Church Fathers:
"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."
St. Ignatius of Antioch "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.



To me this just shows that even in the early church they had both camps as we do today real and remeberance.
 
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Christos Anesti

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It is not our teaching that Christ is re-crucified every Sunday.

Regarding the issue of symbolic vs real I think this is spot on:

"In the history of Christian thought, various ways were developed to try to explain how the bread and the wine become the Body and Blood of Christ in the eucharistic liturgy. Quite unfortunately, these explanations often became too rationalistic and too closely connected with certain human philosophies.

One of the most unfortunate developments took place when men began to debate the reality of Christ's Body and Blood in the eucharist. While some said that the eucharistic gifts of bread and wine were the real Body and Blood of Christ, others said that the gifts were not real, but merely the symbolic or mystical presence of the Body and Blood. The tragedy in both of these approaches is that what is real came to be opposed to what is symbolic or mystical.

The Orthodox Church denies the doctrine that the Body and the Blood of the eucharist are merely intellectual or psychological symbols of Christ's Body and Blood. If this doctrine were true, when the liturgy is celebrated and holy communion is given, the people would be called merely to think about Jesus and to commune with him "in their hearts." In this way, the eucharist would be reduced to a simple memorial meal of the Lord's last supper, and the union with God through its reception would come only on the level of thought or psychological recollection.

On the other hand, however, the Orthodox tradition does use the term "symbols" for the eucharistic gifts. It calls, the service a "mystery" and the sacrifice of the liturgy a "spiritual and bloodless sacrifice." These terms are used by the holy fathers and the liturgy itself.

The Orthodox Church uses such expressions because in Orthodoxy what is real is not opposed to what is symbolical or mystical or spiritual. On the contrary! In the Orthodox view, all of reality -- the world and man himself -- is real to the extent that it is symbolical and mystical, to the extent that reality itself must reveal and manifest God to us. Thus, the eucharist in the Orthodox Church is understood to be the genuine Body and Blood of Christ precisely because bread and wine are the mysteries and symbols of God's true and genuine presence and manifestation to us in Christ. Thus, by eating and drinking the bread and wine which are mystically consecrated by the Holy Spirit, we have genuine communion with God through Christ who is himself "the bread of life" (Jn 6:34, 41).
I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh (Jn 6:51).
Thus, the bread of the eucharist is Christ's flesh, and Christ's flesh is the eucharistic bread. The two are brought together into one. The word "symbolical" in Orthodox terminology means exactly this: "to bring together into one."

Thus we read the words of the Apostle Paul:
For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is broken for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death, until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread and drinks the cup in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord (1 Cor 11:23-26).
The mystery of the holy eucharist defies analysis and explanation in purely rational and logical terms. For the eucharist -- and Christ himself -- is indeed a mystery of the Kingdom of Heaven which, as Jesus has told us, is "not of this world." The eucharist -- because it belongs to God's Kingdom -- is truly free from the earth-born "logic" of fallen humanity."

OCA - The Orthodox Faith
 
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HandmaidenOfGod

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To me this just shows that even in the early church they had both camps as we do today real and remeberance.

Yes, and those who did not recognize the Real Presence were considered heretics, as they are today. So you are correct, some things never change.
 
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Macarius

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My train of thought would be if I believed in real presence then I would think an Icon of Christ could not be made because it would not be the literal body and blood but just wood and paint. To reduce Christ to a drawing would not be on the top of my list.;) How do you guys look at it?

It isn't a reduction, because it isn't actually Christ. It depicts Christ. Just like the Scriptures are the word of God, but in no way diminish the Word of God (Christ), so does an icon not diminish its original objects glory. Quite the opposite, by pointing us TO Christ an icon, like the Scriptures, glorifies Christ and affirms the Incarnation. Because God became man, I can paint His picture. An icon screams forth the gospel by the very audacity of its existence.

The Eucharist, though, is more than merely an icon, just as prayer is more than the Scriptures. The Scriptures point us to Christ, but if we do not reach forward in prayer and encounter Christ they cannot (in and of themselves) effect salvation in us. An icon can point to Christ, but if we do not "taste and see" (to quote Psalm 33) - if we do not respond to that pointer and encounter the risen Christ - then an icon can't do much good.

In prayer, our spirit connects to God's spirit through the grace of God. We have confidence that when we pray, God answers. But God is not just spirit - God is flesh and blood after the Incarnation. In the Eucharist, our body connects to God's body, and we become members of God's body (and therefore members of one another). This is not symbolic, any more than prayer is merely a symbol or a remembrance of a time when we could talk to God. God lives - and so we speak with Him and commune with Him in Spirit. God took flesh - and so we commune with Him in the flesh.

"Whosoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him."

In Christ,
Macarius
 
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Macarius

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That is interesting Handmaiden. It would seem that according to your Liturgy that since you believe in the literal body and blood you are re-crucifying Christ every Sunday instead of remembering Christ's work on the cross done once 2,000 years ago. Is this your belief?

The Eucharistic service (indeed, all services in the Church) bring us into the New Kingdom, which (like God) is eternal and above / beyond time. Christ's sacrifice is once for all - so it exists as continually actualized in the New Kingdom. The Eucharist we celebrate is that one sacrifice (as we learn in Hebrews and in 1 Cor 11). Christ is once crucified, but that sacrifice is for all time. So the Eucharist is the sacrifice - it is the remanifestation of the one sacrifice.

In Christ,
Macarius
 
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Macarius

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To me this just shows that even in the early church they had both camps as we do today real and remeberance.

St. Ignatius is referring to gnostics or docetists - not members in good standing of the church. If you wish to align yourself with the gnostics, that's a whole separate debate ;)
 
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Livindesert

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St. Ignatius is referring to gnostics or docetists - not members in good standing of the church. If you wish to align yourself with the gnostics, that's a whole separate debate ;)

I belong to the One Holy and Universal Church made up of all those who believe that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son(100% God and 100% Man) and whosoever believe in him shall not perish but will have everlasting life.:clap:
 
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Livindesert

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The Eucharistic service (indeed, all services in the Church) bring us into the New Kingdom, which (like God) is eternal and above / beyond time. Christ's sacrifice is once for all - so it exists as continually actualized in the New Kingdom. The Eucharist we celebrate is that one sacrifice (as we learn in Hebrews and in 1 Cor 11). Christ is once crucified, but that sacrifice is for all time. So the Eucharist is the sacrifice - it is the remanifestation of the one sacrifice.

In Christ,
Macarius

I see it as occuring once at one time throught all of time. Not sure if that is too odd for ya :). As long as you believe in him you shall not perish but have ever lasting life. Faith is the key to me. It is our faith that connects us to Christs sacrifice. ;)
 
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Macarius

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I belong to the One Holy and Universal Church made up of all those who believe that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son(100% God and 100% Man) and whosoever believe in him shall not perish but will have everlasting life.:clap:

And that same one, holy and universal Church - at the time that St. Ignatius wrote - did not believe in a symbolic view of the Eucharist. That's our point: for St. Ignatius's church, the Eucharist IS Christ's body and blood.

Your response was that this revealed division over this issue within the Body of Christ - but it wasn't within the Body. It was between heterical gnostics and the Body of Christ.

So, as we said, the oldest Church - the apostolic church - believed the Eucharist to be Christ's body and blood; and they didn't think this to be a trivial matter (St. Ignatius is quite clear on that).

How can we, in good conscience, disregard that merely because its philosophically easier to talk of the Eucharist as a symbol? Am I superior to them, that I should reject their clear teaching on so impotant an issue?

In Christ,
Macarius
 
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Macarius

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I see it as occuring once at one time throught all of time.

I think you mean "throughout" here - correct me if I'm wrong.

If that's what you mean, then we agree with you. Christ's sacrifice occured once for all, but is ever present in the New Kingdom (throughout all time).

As long as you believe in him you shall not perish but have ever lasting life. Faith is the key to me. It is our faith that connects us to Christs sacrifice. ;)

Faith without works is dead - so there's a bit more too it than that. But yes, faith is the foundation and beginning of the spiritual life, and any work without faith is demonic.

Yet why should faith and faith alone be that which connects us to God? Where is faith alone listed as the vehicle for that? Does not Christ actually say we must eat His flesh and drink His blood to unite to Him? Isn't prayer a vehicle for that? Do we not connect to Him via our love for one another (as He shows us in Matt 25) - is not love the greatest of faith, hope, and love?

Finally, in keeping with the gnostics (and later, the Nestorians, as pointed out earlier), your view of faith and unity with God is a purely spiritual one - you reject the possibility of a physical union. Yet we are Christ's wife; is not a physical union part of a spousal relationship? Or should spouses only connect on a spiritual level? Did not Christ become Incarnate? That MATTERS. Christ is physical, as are we. God became Incarnate to connect to the WHOLE of us - body and soul. We cannot disregard the body, or it is tantamount to denying the Incarnation (or dances dangerously close to that).

In Christ,
Macarius
 
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