how can I reconcile a huge moral dilemma when it comes to personal

[Poppyseed78]

He is not even close to being ready for marital counseling.

I'd let him prove his repentance for at least a year and then consider marital counseling, only IF he was overwhelmingly successful in his proof and IF I wanted to sign up for a very long marital recovery - possibly even lifelong.

It is my conviction you have Biblical grounds to terminate the marriage and not consider reconciliation or counseling at all.

I completely agree with you. To be entirely honest I would just leave. I believe this is grounds for divorce. But I don't know if the OP is there yet. To reach a point where you are "done" can take some time. Sometimes it helps to hear from a professional, neutral third party that the behavior in question is not okay and that leaving is justified.

I would be making an ultimatum: it's me or the fetish. Can't have both. If the husband refuses to accept responsibility for his behavior and make any effort to change or repent, then it's definitely time to go. If he refuses counseling, that is an answer in itself.

 

[worriedmommie]

I completely agree with you. To be entirely honest I would just leave. I believe this is grounds for divorce. But I don't know if the OP is there yet. To reach a point where you are "done" can take some time. Sometimes it helps to hear from a professional, neutral third party that the behavior in question is not okay and that leaving is justified.

I would be making an ultimatum: it's me or the fetish. Can't have both. If the husband refuses to accept responsibility for his behavior and make any effort to change or repent, then it's definitely time to go. If he refuses counseling, that is an answer in itself.

He has already said he "chose " me, but I did not feel there was much sincerity there hence why I am still crashing with family. But I agree a lot with @Endeavourer that this IS NOT something that I can just accept "I won't do it again". You are right that I am not quite the for actually ending the marriage as we do have a child. And no the child does not knew what the issue is right now. He just things we are sleeping over with his cousin right now. Neither he nor his cousin know what's going on.

 

[worriedmommie]

I understand. My advice would be to look over the infractions of your in-laws. Not that you have to agree with their actions.

As for your husband's parents, it's really too bad that would take his side on this. There is nothing good about any type of inappropriate contentography, but this...I thought that I had been around the block, but that's a new one.

Also, I know my self, another reason I want help in my introspection concerning my moral dilemma is because I know part of the reason I have this moral dilemma is rooted in my own envy. I know this is wrong but on a baser level it is a shocker that some one who is proud to be a criminal, revels in his own rebellion could be so much of a better provider (both emotionally and financially ) than a man who always touts right is right wrong is wrong and champions the cause of law and order. Like the other day, the husband doesn't come home till super late. It was raining real heavy, he didn't call, and his wife is starting to freak out. He told rolls in at close to 930pm, soaking wet with mud allover his truck. His wife screams at him and he produces a brown paper sack with two pints of fresh custard. So apparently what happened is after he finished the day at his regular job he decided to check on one of his crews to see the progress. Apparently he gets caught up with something there and decides to treat his guys to a dinner (yet he neglects to inform his wife). He then remembered that the custard place his wife and daughter likes was making a special flavor they had on their wedding so he decided to stop their to pick up a couple pints. Well on his way there he decided to take a short cut through a utility field which gets his truck covered in mud and a traffic ticket. This all leads to him getting home really late and scaring the tar out if his wife. He constantly does stuff like this but more often then not it is because he wants to treat his wife or daughter to something special. Clearly he shouldn't be hiring undocumented crews or driving through utility fields but he does these things, often at great inconvenience to him self in order to spoil and pamper his wife and daughter. Then thinking of my husband, sitting at home with his inappropriate content and fetish world while I am out working makes me just green with envy.

And I'll admit living with m my sister in law and her husband is almost a surreal experience. That man has absolutely no reason to steal or engage in shady labor practices. Yet he does, he doesn't hide it from his wife or child (mind you his wife is the sister of my husband so she grew up with the same reverence of law and order her brother did) and to them this is all part of the background fabric of their lives.
Like another time, he comes home from "work" and his extra curiculars and switches off the stove that his wife is cooking dinner on. He announces that instead of meat loaf we were going to Fogo de Chao. His wife protests initially saying that they should save the money and he responds by saying that he "found" a load of pressure treated 2x4's and he was able to return them to the local home improvement store (the big blue one) and since he bought 2x4's over a month ago the store was able to refund onto his credit card close to 300 dollars. Before his wife could say anything his daughter announces "All hail the King of Theives". He then asks his wife "what say you my queen" and she replied with "long live the king" and with that the three of them were getting ready to go out and eat at an expensive restaurant with the profits of chicanery. When he noticed that my son and weren't getting up to go with them, he told us that when he said "we" he meant ever one and that we were welcome to go too.
Again I appreciate them 1000% just some of the stuff they do is really really weird and completely throws my moral compass out of whack.

 

[HereIStand]

Also, I know my self, another reason I want help in my introspection concerning my moral dilemma is because I know part of the reason I have this moral dilemma is rooted in my own envy. I know this is wrong but on a baser level it is a shocker that some one who is proud to be a criminal, revels in his own rebellion could be so much of a better provider (both emotionally and financially ) than a man who always touts right is right wrong is wrong and champions the cause of law and order. Like the other day, the husband doesn't come home till super late. It was raining real heavy, he didn't call, and his wife is starting to freak out. He told rolls in at close to 930pm, soaking wet with mud allover his truck. His wife screams at him and he produces a brown paper sack with two pints of fresh custard. So apparently what happened is after he finished the day at his regular job he decided to check on one of his crews to see the progress. Apparently he gets caught up with something there and decides to treat his guys to a dinner (yet he neglects to inform his wife). He then remembered that the custard place his wife and daughter likes was making a special flavor they had on their wedding so he decided to stop their to pick up a couple pints. Well on his way there he decided to take a short cut through a utility field which gets his truck covered in mud and a traffic ticket. This all leads to him getting home really late and scaring the tar out if his wife. He constantly does stuff like this but more often then not it is because he wants to treat his wife or daughter to something special. Clearly he shouldn't be hiring undocumented crews or driving through utility fields but he does these things, often at great inconvenience to him self in order to spoil and pamper his wife and daughter. Then thinking of my husband, sitting at home with his inappropriate content and fetish world while I am out working makes me just green with envy.

And I'll admit living with m my sister in law and her husband is almost a surreal experience. That man has absolutely no reason to steal or engage in shady labor practices. Yet he does, he doesn't hide it from his wife or child (mind you his wife is the sister of my husband so she grew up with the same reverence of law and order her brother did) and to them this is all part of the background fabric of their lives.
Like another time, he comes home from "work" and his extra curiculars and switches off the stove that his wife is cooking dinner on. He announces that instead of meat loaf we were going to Fogo de Chao. His wife protests initially saying that they should save the money and he responds by saying that he "found" a load of pressure treated 2x4's and he was able to return them to the local home improvement store (the big blue one) and since he bought 2x4's over a month ago the store was able to refund onto his credit card close to 300 dollars. Before his wife could say anything his daughter announces "All hail the King of Theives". He then asks his wife "what say you my queen" and she replied with "long live the king" and with that the three of them were getting ready to go out and eat at an expensive restaurant with the profits of chicanery. When he noticed that my son and weren't getting up to go with them, he told us that when he said "we" he meant ever one and that we were welcome to go too.
Again I appreciate them 1000% just some of the stuff they do is really really weird and completely throws my moral compass out of whack.

I think that understand the situation more now. He sounds like a real attentive husband and father, but returning things like that would bother me also. Not that I've never lied or cheated. That just seems like it's taking advantage of the system, which hurts everyone.

About your husband, having law-abiding attitude, not working, and having a inappropriate content habit don't make a good mix. That would be tough to take. I understand that men like seeing women, but this type of thing is off the charts.

 

[worriedmommie]

I think that understand the situation more now. He sounds like a real attentive husband and father, but returning things like that would bother me also. Not that I've never lied or cheated. That just seems like it's taking advantage of the system, which hurts everyone.

About your husband, having law-abiding attitude, not working, and having a inappropriate content habit don't make a good mix. That would be tough to take. I understand that men like seeing women, but this type of thing is off the charts.

See, this is the moral dilemma I am trying to reconcile within my self. And like I said this is completely personal internal introspection. I completely appreciate my sister in law and her husband and I am offering absolutely no judgement. To tell you the truth I really don't trust my own judgement if character anymore anyways. The only thing I did ask of them is to please don't be that open about their disdain for the law in front of my son. At first they were put off by my request because they really really despise the law but when I explained to them that my son's autism is already difficult to deal they agreed to not be so open with their behavior.

 

[Endeavourer]

The only thing I did ask of them is to please don't be that open about their disdain for the law in front of my son. At first they were put off by my request because they really really despise the law but when I explained to them that my son's autism is already difficult to deal they agreed to not be so open with their behavior.

Wow, this is impressive that they agreed to not only welcome you into their home, but also change some of their ordinary way of life to accommodate you.

If it were me, I'd just not worry about their private convictions but focus on simply witnessing to them with the fruits of the Spirit from your own heart and walk. I would not speak to them about it any further, but you could pray that the Holy Spirit would convict them in His timing.

 

[Endeavourer]

He has already said he "chose " me, but I did not feel there was much sincerity there hence why I am still crashing with family.

He hasn't chosen you for a long time; I am really pleased that you are not falling for this.

As we've discussed, it will take a long time for him to prove out his choices.

Talk is easy; his walk hasn't been about choosing you for a LONG time. Let him walk the walk for a while - if he chooses to.

A full time+ job for at least a year (given his poor and short term employment histories) would be one way to show it as well as FULL digital transparency with web watcher software providing reports to you of his devices and computer activity.

 

[worriedmommie]

Wow, this is impressive that they agreed to not only welcome you into their home, but also change some of their ordinary way of life to accommodate you.

If it were me, I'd just not worry about their private convictions but focus on simply witnessing to them with the fruits of the Spirit from your own heart and walk. I would not speak to them about it any further, but you could pray that the Holy Spirit would convict them in His timing.

I don't speak to them about this at all. That's why I come here for some other points if view for my personal introspection. I know they are good people and that I misjudge2 them. It is just a lot I am trying to process internally, that coupled with trying to raise my son. So far all us adults have kept the real reason why we are here away from both children.

 

[worriedmommie]

He hasn't chosen you for a long time; I am really pleased that you are not falling for this.

As we've discussed, it will take a long time for him to prove out his choices.

Talk is easy; his walk hasn't been about choosing you for a LONG time. Let him walk the walk for a while - if he chooses to.

A full time+ job for at least a year (given his poor and short term employment histories) would be one way to show it as well as FULL digital transparency with web watcher software providing reports to you of his devices and computer activity.

That and he has a couple DUI'S. My sister in law's husband says that the DUI'S are the real killer. He won't be able to work any sort of transportation or construction jobs, not on the books at least. And the fact that he didn't go to college precludes most white collar jobs.

 

[Endeavourer]

With respect to telling your son (with age appropriate editing, in 3 sentences or less), what do you think of this article?

One way I've seen it phrased to younger kids on some forums is "Daddy was seeing other girlfriends on the internet. Married people are not supposed to have other girlfriends."

When Should an Affair Be Exposed

Most addiction programs believe the start to killing an addiction is when the addict admits the addiction. We're all familiar with the "I'm John Doe and I'm an alcoholic." announcement that is purportedly a standard opening line at AA meetings.

AA's experience and that of many addiction clinics is that exposing the behavior is the first step for the addict to see his behavior for what it is - he would see it through the eyes of others - and is often a catalyst for admitting a problem.

In affairs, you often see that the wayward parent very deeply cares about how the children see his/her behavior and the children knowing about the affair can be a very persuasive factor in the parent confronting his addiction (to the affair partner, to inappropriate content, etc.) and starting to overcome it.

On this board I've seen betrayed spouses comment about how the children knowing was a very strong factor in persuading the wayward parent to stop the waywardness.

If your son knows why he can't be alone with his dad anymore (again, in a child appropriate way), it may help your husband keep working to overcome his addiction.

This is A! LOT! for you to take in right now.... I'm only offering this concept as food for thought at this moment.

 

[Endeavourer]

^^ regarding this post ^^

The point of you caring about whether or not his addiction continues, if you divorce him, is just for the sake of your son so he can have a more normal (unsupervised) relationship with his dad.

 

[worriedmommie]

If it were me, I'd just not worry about their private convictions but focus on simply witnessing to them with the fruits of the Spirit from your own heart and walk. I would not speak to them about it any further, but you could pray that the Holy Spirit would convict them in His timing.

I guess another thing I am struggling with is the question is what they are doing really "immoral" or "wrong". Like I said I am in absolutely no place to pass judgement on them, in fact I am starting to question my own moral compass. This is really what is nagging at me. Clearly my sister in law and her husband are not wicked people. Yes they despise the law, they steal, they cheat and they revel in their behavior but I have never seen people more genuine than them in all my life. And I am not just talking about how they treat me and my son. I have seen him and how he deals with his undocumented work crews. Yeah, he is breaking the law by hiring them but he treats them better than I have been treated by any employer in my past. He genuinely seems to care about them as people rather than just labor. He feeds them, he makes sure they have all the safety gear they need, and if any of their gear is deficient he replaces it for them out of his own pocket. Yet this is the same guy who follow employment laws and he has absolutely no compunction about defrauding big box stores. So all of this does this make him more or less moral than some one who keeps the law yet only does what is legally required of him when it comes to loving his fellow man.

 

[Endeavourer]

That and he has a couple DUI'S. My sister in law's husband says that the DUI'S are the real killer. He won't be able to work any sort of transportation or construction jobs, not on the books at least. And the fact that he didn't go to college precludes most white collar jobs.

Most victims try to protect the perpetrator by trying to help them solve the problems their behavior has caused.

His behavior put him in the situation he is in, both his decision to engage nearly full time in deviant inappropriate content and his decision to drink and drive. It's important to let him figure it out on his own - what type of work, etc etc - so he can prove to himself he has value and can provide child support for his son.

I'm quite confident (or at least hopeful) the courts will mandate some type of work for him when they understand the reason he can't work is because he's spending all day on deviant inappropriate content.

Wouldn't be ironic if he has to approach his brother in law for off-the-books work due to his DUI history - the brother in law he has excoriated in the past.

 

[Endeavourer]

I guess another thing I am struggling with is the question is what they are doing really "immoral" or "wrong". Like I said I am in absolutely no place to pass judgement on them, in fact I am starting to question my own moral compass.

To your conscience, it is wrong. To theirs it is not.

My conscience is more closely aligned with yours in this matter, but we are not their deputy Holy Spirit.

I think a lot of Christians struggle with thinking their own convictions are black and white Biblical and that anyone who doesn't agree with them is wrong. It's very hard for us to take a step back, live by our convictions and let God work in the hearts of others.

I think that you are not at all in a position to be effective if you addressed the difference of their behavior and your convictions with them at this time. The Bible talks about having a word in season, and this is not "in season" at this moment.

If I were you, I'd let your thoughts on this rest and just wait to see what God does in their lives in the future. Once you are out of their home and supporting yourself, if an opportunity comes up for a persuasive word in season, then that is something to consider at that time.

Let God be God; you just be the best mom you can be right now in this difficult time.

Does this help you?

 

[worriedmommie]

Wouldn't be ironic if he has to approach his brother in law for off-the-books work due to his DUI history - the brother in law he has excoriated in the past.

Funny you should say this. Because this has already occurred and I will admit I seriously wronged my sister in law's husband in that situation and he found it in his heart to forgive and forget. A while ago, when we first found out my sister in law's husband was putting together crews to do off the books work, we did inquire if he would be willing to hire my husbandat a fair wage to be a foreman. He offered 50 dollars a day plus one meal and refused to budge on that. At the time my convictions was that he was being an exploitive SOB and that what he was doing was both illegal and immoral. So first we tried to talk to him about it, he laughed at us, then we went to his wife, she laughed too, we tried to go to his parents but they barely spoke English and had no idea what our issue was, the we went to my father in law and he spoke to him, but he was rebuffed and ridiculed so we finally decided to go to the INS and the Texas labor commission. Sister in law's husband wormed his way out of that one because his best friend is an attorney and after that they were constantly rubbing it in our noses that they got away with it. They basically rubbed my nose in that till the moment they invited me to stay in their home.

I think that you are not at all in a position to be effective if you addressed the difference of their behavior and your convictions with them at this time. The Bible talks about having a word in season, and this is not "in season" at this moment.

I want to know honestly, does it make me a horrible person because I am starting to believe their convictions are more correct than my own? Maybe I am starting to resent the law and order type my mother and father in law are. Yes they respect and champion the law and they hide behind it saying their son had done nothing illegal and that it is unreasonable to deny him his son for engaging in a perfectly legal pass time. Whereas my sister in law's husband despises the law, both biblical and secular, yet has opened his home to me and treats me and my son no different than others under his roof.

 

[Endeavourer]

OK, now THAT is quite a rich history. Wow!!!

I want to know honestly, does it make me a horrible person because I am starting to believe their convictions are more correct than my own? Maybe I am starting to resent the law and order type my mother and father in law are. Yes they respect and champion the law and they hide behind it saying their son had done nothing illegal and that it is unreasonable to deny him his son for engaging in a perfectly legal pass time. Whereas my sister in law's husband despises the law, both biblical and secular, yet has opened his home to me and treats me and my son no different than others under his roof.

Sometimes a crisis allows us to see a deeper dimension into our convictions. And to see deficiencies in our thinking that needs refinement.

This was definitely the case with me; my entire "moral" understanding of what the Bible teaches about marriage was upended. It took me about a year of studying Scripture to re-learn what I believe and why I believe it.

I would allow yourself to question your convictions, but take some time of study and reflection before you change them. It's a good idea to always have a Biblical basis for your convictions so you know why you are conforming your behavior to them.

In this case, there is a Biblical basis for how they took you in so beautifully. There are other ways they behave that reflect a love of their fellow man - ways you weren't expecting to find, and ways that are far more evident than how your legalistic in-laws offer.

There is not a Biblical basis for the dry, discompassionate legalism your parents-in-law display (and the hypocrisy of making exceptions for anything their own people do, such as betray a wife with perverted inappropriate content all day, thieving her wages to do so and abandoning his responsibility to provide for his own child.).

You have a whole new paradigm to process here; just go slowly and take your time.