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How can God regret if he knows the future?

2PhiloVoid

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Ok, maybe I was a bit unclear. My point was the the physical suffering of Jesus was nothing exceptional, a lot of people have suffered worse. And still the passion of Christ is hailed is something unique. And I used the witch example just because they suffered horrible deaths being totally innocent, comparable to the suffering of Jesus. I'm sure you agree there are no real witches. And they didn't wake up three days later as goddesses...

On my part, I'm not seeing how the act of comparing Jesus' sufferings to those of some random witch at the Salem Witch trials has anything to do with whether or not God is culpable for human suffering on the whole. Care to explain to me how you get from point A to point Z on this? You started out saying that "God is responsible," and then what did we start talking about after that?
 
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ximmix

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On my part, I'm not seeing how the act of comparing Jesus' sufferings to those of some random witch at the Salem Witch trials has anything to do with whether or not God is culpable for human suffering on the whole. Care to explain to me how you get from point A to point Z on this? You started out saying that "God is responsible," and then what did we start talking about after that?

Ah yes sorry, this was a bit of a tangent I guess, it doesn't really have to do with God's culpability for His inaction to prevent the suffering of mankind...
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Ah yes sorry, this was a bit of a tangent I guess, it doesn't really have to do with God's culpability for His inaction to prevent the suffering of mankind...

No problem. Maybe we can just let the conversation rest here, if you want. I fully understand the frustration everyone has because we live in a world of suffering. I just don't think that if we take the whole of Christian theology, avoiding the chopping off of its legs where we end up looking at on only the moral torso of it, then if we take the whole, then, for me, I'm alright if God with Heal it all at a later time.

Again, it's my opinion that this is meant to be a kind of epistemological rorschach, and each person will have to existentially decide for himself whether he will reconcile with God (in Jesus Christ) over the suffering we (and God Himself) all have to put up with. :brokenheart:

Peace.
 
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Barney2.0

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If God is acting inside time, then he is subject to time. Actions have duration; beginning, middle, and end.
The action he would be acting in time would be subject to time not him himself, a good example of that would be his incarnation in the Virgin Mary, the action of the incarnation was subject to time God himself however wasn’t bound by it.

God is an action?
That’s not what I said, I think you misunderstood me. You asked me of an example of an action outside of time, I said there can be no example of any such action from anything of creation, only God being uncreated and the author of time can preform an action outside of time itself, thus the only example of an action outside of time would be from God himself.

Because everything created is affected by time and it’s changes.

Nothing in that quote contradicts what I've said.
If everything has a beginning than something has to have authored it and if all of creation has a beginning as science affirms than only something uncreated could have caused it to be what it is and created it and that would be God, what is created couldn’t have caused itself to exist.

What calculations are those? I think you misunderstand the meaning of an open set, which does not include the endpoint. For example, all the real numbers greater than zero contains some pretty small numbers, but it does not contain zero. With time, you can get as early as you want, but the 'zero' moment isn't contained in that set.
Regardless of that, the universe and time didn’t always exist and had a start somewhere.

That's exactly what it means.
So if I know that when you drop a pen in the air regardless of your supposed ignorance of the laws of gravity, and know 100% that it will hit the ground when you yourself don’t than according to you, you didn’t actually choose to drop it in the air. If A is exactly what it means than B must follow too.

The only way choice can exist is if I can make a choice that God does not expect. Otherwise, it's not a choice.
As I said your assertion is simply absurd as knowing 100% that if you drive a Ferrari too fast while on a crowded road during traffic your going to get yourself into a nasty car accident, according to you logic if I knew the outcome without a shred of a doubt than you didn’t actually choose nor desire to do the action in the first place rather it was forced upon you by me, make sense?

But the fact that my actions are known in advance means I'm not the one choosing them, and therefore they are not my choice. Maybe somebody else made them besides God. It doesn't matter who made the choice for me, but the point is that it's not my choice.
As I already stressed enough this is not the case, if we as mortal finite humans can know an action before it happens in certain predictable situations and you would not concur that we didn’t choose the action in the first place. If you honestly think that God knowing something for certain removes the freedom of choice than you’d have to reject the very reality we live in, it’s as simple as that. Your merely trying to create an argument of conflict between God’s attribute of omniscience and our God given free will when in reality it does not exist.

That's like saying 2 plus 2 can be both 4 and not 4.
Well for one this isn’t math and has nothing to do with math, would you deny that once your thoughts are written in paper they’d cease to exist in the confines of your mind, Also even mathwise 2 + 2 isn’t 4 before you add it, it is only 2 + 2 = 4 post addition not pre addition, so yes 2 + 2 can = 4 and not be 4 in different respects, but not in the same way and respect.
 
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NxNW

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NxNw: If God exists, what does he do that is not accomplished by nature? I'd need specific events/time/place.

Create nature. Why would you need a specific time and place? Do you have a time machine and could go and check?

What about nature requires a supernatural intervention? Was it only one instance, at the beginning, or is it ongoing?
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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What about nature requires a supernatural intervention? Was it only one instance, at the beginning, or is it ongoing?
Ongoing. Miracles happen. They are not natural, so by definition they require a supernatural component.
 
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dcalling

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Well I wouldn't slaughter the child. God did seem to do a lot of slaughtering to correct these perceived wrongs...

The physical world is not the end of it, the spiritual world is permanent. What you call slaughter can be viewed as ascension. But only God knows it and God should be the only judge (i.e. do you support abortion?)
 
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dcalling

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To me that doesnt make sense at all. That an omnipotent being should be restricted in that way, only omnipotent "in all things physical". And the idea that he chooses not to use his omnipotence is just silly in my mind, as is the idea that God allows evil in order for us to have a real life...

Edited for spelling.

If you want a real soul and not a computer, you have to allow that soul the ability to sin. If there is no sin, there is no good either. So when Adam and Eve first appeared, God just told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge, but give them the ability to choose.
 
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Tinker Grey

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The physical world is not the end of it, the spiritual world is permanent. What you call slaughter can be viewed as ascension. But only God knows it and God should be the only judge (i.e. do you support abortion?)
No. If I am to follow some purported god, then I must judge whether that god is worthy of worship. If you have no answer for your god's behavior other than "god knows", then I judge your conception of god not worthy.
 
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dcalling

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No. If I am to follow some purported god, then I must judge whether that god is worthy of worship. If you have no answer for your god's behavior other than "god knows", then I judge your conception of god not worthy.
You are entitled to what you think. I am only here to inform you that there could be someone much smarter than us that is doing something we don't understand.
 
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Tinker Grey

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You are entitled to what you think. I am only here to inform you that there could be someone much smarter than us that is doing something we don't understand.
You said only God should judge; I'm saying I have no choice but to judge.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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My question was: specifically what miracles?
Well I would say from personal experience, healing and answers to prayer. But you might want to read a scholarly work on the subject: Craig Keener's Miracles. I've not read it myself yet, but I've heard good things about what it documents.
 
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Tinker Grey

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We do have the ability to judge, but if the judgement is correct or not is another matter.
If one cannot provide justification for some act that counters my estimation of it, then my judgement stands. I must judge and the only thing I can base that judgement on are the facts at hand. I cannot suspend judgement for such a character. If it cares to introduce itself and explain its actions, I'll reconsider.

Whether I am right or not, you lack the information to know.
 
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dcalling

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If one cannot provide justification for some act that counters my estimation of it, then my judgement stands. I must judge and the only thing I can base that judgement on are the facts at hand. I cannot suspend judgement for such a character. If it cares to introduce itself and explain its actions, I'll reconsider.

Whether I am right or not, you lack the information to know.

We all use the information at hand, but if our judgement is correct or not is another matter.
 
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dcalling

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But, one is justified in making a judgement based on the information at hand whether or not it turns out they are correct.

True but they also have to acknowledge that they might not be correct due to the limitation of their current knowledge.
 
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Tinker Grey

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True but they also have to acknowledge that they might not be correct due to the limitation of their current knowledge.
Sure. Anyone can be wrong. But the apologist should not tell me I'm not allowed to render judgement.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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But, one is justified in making a judgement based on the information at hand whether or not it turns out they are correct.

That's debatable. In fact, that's very debatable. Although, it might also be debatable as to whether or not I actually disagree with you ... ^_^
 
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