How can God regret if he knows the future?

[NxNW]

I totally agree (obviously not with your statement about God not being omniscient). The problem isn't with God being omniscient, but what omniscience includes.

If the future does not pre-exist then then not knowing it is not deficient.

I'm arguing against Al Masihi's claims that it does exist and God knows it. Whether it actually exists and is set in stone, is another matter. I personally doubt it based on what little I've read of complex systems.

If there is nothing in the future, then God not knowing the future does not constitute a lack of knowledge, because God still knows everything it is possible to know.

If that's the case, then biblical passages would necessarily be false. I'm fine with that, too.

Well in my view it is the future that doesn't exist, your view sounds like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The only contradictions that occur come with your preconceived ideas about the nature of reality & God.

Preconceived? I'm merely taking statements made by others and following them to their logical conclusion.

However, I'll ask this: If God exists, what does he do that is not accomplished by nature? I'd need specific events/time/place.

 

[ximmix]

Whose free will? If God has free will too and wants to will something to happen then I have no problem with the idea that he might override free will occasionally. If he couldn't override free will when necessary then clearly he wouldn't be omnipotent.

On the the other hand he might not need to. Take a simple prophecy such as someone being told that all their needs will be met.

God speaks to someone and prompts them to send some money. That person fails to respond (free will don't you know?) and so God prompts somebody else who does respond. No free will overridden and a simple prophecy fulfilled.

Well, I hear a lot that all evils of this world is because of free will. Now ur saying God can override free will for petty things but not for the well-being of mankind. Hmm...

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

If that's the case, then biblical passages would necessarily be false.

You'd have to explain how that is the case. After all theologians that follow this idea don't see any necessary falseness.

If God exists, what does he do that is not accomplished by nature? I'd need specific events/time/place.

Create nature. Why would you need a specific time and place? Do you have a time machine and could go and check?

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Well, I hear a lot that all evils of this world is because of free will. Now ur saying God can override free will for petty things but not for the well-being of mankind. Hmm...

No, I'm saying the God CAN override free will. If he couldn't then he would not have free will of his own. On the other hand if God overrode everyone's free will they wouldn't actually have any would they.

We can only speculate on the roads not taken. We could already have been subject to the overriding of free will in, say, the Cuban Missile Crisis. Your own existence might be down to some kind of intervention. Just because God doesn't dance to your tune, doesn't make the things he does for the well-being of mankind.

 

[ximmix]

No, I'm saying the God CAN override free will. If he couldn't then he would not have free will of his own. On the other hand if God overrode everyone's free will they wouldn't actually have any would they.

We can only speculate on the roads not taken. We could already have been subject to the overriding of free will in, say, the Cuban Missile Crisis. Your own existence might be down to some kind of intervention. Just because God doesn't dance to your tune, doesn't make the things he does for the well-being of mankind.

In your view, when a woman gets raped and killed, God could have stepped in and overridden the perp's free will, but he didn't bother.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

In your view, when a woman gets raped and killed, God could have stepped in and overridden the perp's free will, but he didn't bother.

Yes, but then so could the rapist. God is not responsible for the rapists actions.

The whole point of the free will argument is that we are free to love, but to be free to love, we also need to be free to hate. And if God overrides every time someone is 'hating' then he is necessarily denying them the opportunity to choose to 'love'.

 

[ximmix]

Yes, but then so could the rapist. God is not responsible for the rapists actions.

The whole point of the free will argument is that we are free to love, but to be free to love, we also need to be free to hate. And if God overrides every time someone is 'hating' then he is necessarily denying them the opportunity to choose to 'love'.

No, you said that God can override free will if he finds it important. I can only surmise that God doesn't care what happens on this earth...

 

[ximmix]

Yes, but then so could the rapist. God is not responsible for the rapists actions.

The whole point of the free will argument is that we are free to love, but to be free to love, we also need to be free to hate. And if God overrides every time someone is 'hating' then he is necessarily denying them the opportunity to choose to 'love'.

Let me put it this way, in what circumstances does God intervene and suspends free will? You have said that he does it...

 

[ximmix]

Yes, but then so could the rapist. God is not responsible for the rapists actions.

Really? To me, if the God of Christianity exists, he is totally responsible...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Really? To me, if the God of Christianity exists, he is totally responsible...

Typically, I just blame the rapist for whatever he's done, and then I wonder why it even had to happen in the first place, God or no god.

 

[ximmix]

Typically, I just blame the rapist for whatever he's done, and then I wonder why it even had to happen in the first place, God or no god.

Yes i agree that the rapist is totally responsible. But Christianity teaches that God is all powerful and all knowing, so He knew beforehand that the guy would rape her, and He did nothing to stop it. If i would come across a rape in progress and didn't act to stop it, and just stood by watching, im sure most people would think i would be a horrible person...

 

[dcalling]

Yes i agree that the rapist is totally responsible. But Christianity teaches that God is all powerful and all knowing, so He knew beforehand that the guy would rape her, and He did nothing to stop it. If i would come across a rape in progress and didn't act to stop it, and just stood by watching, im sure most people would think i would be a horrible person...

I totally agree God is the most powerful, and the all knowing part, I think so too (unless if you believe in free will, which then God is not all knowing).

If you check the OT, After Cain kills Abel, God let Cain go. History is a story written by God, and all living souls (or sometimes just fake robots) are inserted into this play, eventually all will be judged according to their faith, and by what they have done.


And God is unimaginably smarter than us. It is like the butterfly effect, you never know what effect of your actions will cause, and some actions, that looks bad today, can be of ultimate good for most souls.

 

[ximmix]

I totally agree God is the most powerful, and the all knowing part, I think so too (unless if you believe in free will, which then God is not all knowing).

If you check the OT, After Cain kills Abel, God let Cain go. History is a story written by God, and all living souls (or sometimes just fake robots) are inserted into this play, eventually all will be judged according to their faith, and by what they have done.


And God is unimaginably smarter than us. It is like the butterfly effect, you never know what effect of your actions will cause, and some actions, that looks bad today, can be of ultimate good for most souls.

Ok, I gather from your reply that you agree that God is responsible for not stopping the rape from happening.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes i agree that the rapist is totally responsible. But Christianity teaches that God is all powerful and all knowing, so He knew beforehand that the guy would rape her, and He did nothing to stop it. If i would come across a rape in progress and didn't act to stop it, and just stood by watching, im sure most people would think i would be a horrible person...

You also miss the point that with God, if He's truly Almighty (or 'Omnipotent'), He can undo all of the damage that has been done to a human being at a later date, even if that date is later than the moment at which people would so wish He'd actually undo it ............................................................................. so, while I understand the grief that goes into this constant, constant harboring upon this one excuse of a gripe, there is also the other side of it that goes completely ignored. To me, it's AS IF somehow folks don't think this aspect of God play into the overall axiological equation regarding God's goodness when, IN FACT, it actually does.

 

[dcalling]

Ok, I gather from your reply that you agree that God is responsible for not stopping the rape from happening.

I won't say God is responsible for not stopping the rape, as the rapist is personally responsible.

It is the same as saying, yes I know there is a rape going on, and I can stop it, but at the other place someone is drowning and I have to save that one first, so I am not responsible for not stopping the rape.

 

[Tinker Grey]

It is the same as saying, yes I know there is a rape going on, and I can stop it, but at the other place someone is drowning and I have to save that one first, so I am not responsible for not stopping the rape.

How is this a problem for the omnipotent?

 

[dcalling]

How is this a problem for the omnipotent?

It is my believe that God is not omnipotent. I believe God is omnipotent on all things physical, but once soul is created which is capable of its own awareness, omnipotent became impossible (just my thought, so @2PhiloVoid could be right and I could be wrong).

 

[Tinker Grey]

It is my believe that God is not omnipotent. I believe God is omnipotent on all things physical, but once soul is created which is capable of its own awareness, omnipotent became impossible (just my thought, so @2PhiloVoid could be right and I could be wrong).

Ah. Well, as I said somewhere (this thread?), a more modest version of a god (one with constrained power) make things easier to reconcile.

Of course, I wouldn't know how you would demonstrate that you are correct.

 

[dcalling]

Ah. Well, as I said somewhere (this thread?), a more modest version of a god (one with constrained power) make things easier to reconcile.

Of course, I wouldn't know how you would demonstrate that you are correct.

I can't and in fact I might well be wrong, and that God is indeed all powerful, so in that case @2PhiloVoid will be correct. The issue is we are way to simple to understand God, so other than the attributes of God from Bible, the rest we are left to guess. The bottom line is the evidences definitely suggest a God of order, and from the Bible a God that does not like evil. Different people can come to different conclusions, but for me it is evident that when we claim humans are good and there is no God, we usually get into a worse position.

 

[ximmix]

You also miss the point that with God, if He's truly Almighty (or 'Omnipotent'), He can undo all of the damage that has been done to a human being at a later date, even if that date is later than the moment at which people would so wish He'd actually undo it ............................................................................. so, while I understand the grief that goes into this constant, constant harboring upon this one excuse of a gripe, there is also the other side of it that goes completely ignored. To me, it's AS IF somehow folks don't think this aspect of God play into the overall axiological equation regarding God's goodness when, IN FACT, it actually does.

Do I understand you correctly, do you mean that it's ok that God doesn't stop the suffering from happening in the first place, because he will make it up to the victim somehow at a later date? And I guess that only applies to Christian victims. To me, it seems like a lot of extra-biblical reasoning to explain God's inaction, and it makes God seem a bit cruel in my eyes...