How can God regret if he knows the future?

[Barney2.0]

If God knows in advance what choices I will make, they are not choices. Therefore, free will cannot exist in a universe with an omniscient God.

God knows in advance the choices that you will make, not the choices that he will make for you. So free will does exist in a universe with an omniscient God.

 

[NxNW]

God doing actions doesn’t mean they have to be time based

Actually, they do. Please give an example of an action that is not based in time, having duration.

God has given humanity free choice, he knows their choices

It's not free will if our choices are known in advance.

God knowing everything doesn’t mean he has prejudged everyone to heaven and hell.

If he doesn't know the judgements in advance, he doesn't know everything.

God’s judgement is based on what he knows humanity will choose based on their freedom of choice

If God knows the choices in advance, they are not free choices.

being outside of time doesn’t mean God can’t enter into time or influence it,

Actually it does.

 

[NxNW]

God knows in advance the choices that you will make, not the choices that he will make for you. So free will does exist in a universe with an omniscient God.

Am I capable of making a choice that surprises God?

 

[Barney2.0]

Actually, they do. Please give an example of an action that is not based in time, having duration.

I don’t need to give an example, God’s actions are not finite in nature thus are not time based, I already said that if there is no action outside of time then time itself cannot be exist, since time was created and has a beginning thus requires an action by God outside of it to create and start it.

It's not free will if our choices are known in advance.

The definition of free will is the ability for us to choose multiple courses of action with our own mind and desires. God knowing the choices we make and the outcome of our choices has nothing to do with us deciding them or choosing them.

If he doesn't know the judgements in advance, he doesn't know everything.

I said he hasn’t pre-judged everyone to their fate, his judgement is acts in accordance to the will he gave us, God will judge us in accordance to way we chose to enact our free will, we are not prejudged to certain fates.

If God knows the choices in advance, they are not free choices.

What does knowing the choices we make have to do with us choosing them, if I know for sure what candy your going to eat and you actually do eat it, by your logic you didn’t choose to eat it, rather strange.

Actually it does.

God created space and time, thus is at liberty to influence it and enter in and out of it as he pleases, he’s not locked out of it, otherwise he couldn’t have created it.

 

[Barney2.0]

Am I capable of making a choice that surprises God?

No you aren’t, but that has nothing to do with making a choice out of your own will and desires.

 

[NxNW]

I don’t need to give an example, God’s actions are not finite in nature thus are not time based

OK, if God is outside time, then he can't commit an action that is inside time.

I already said that if there is no action outside of time then time itself cannot be exist

Please give an example of an action outside time.

since time was created and has a beginning thus requires an action by God outside of it to create and start it.

You haven't provided evidence that time was created by God. My understanding from reading Stephen Hawking is that the beginning of time is like an open set. For example, think of the lowest number greater than zero. Any figure you provide, such as 0.1, I can simply divide by 2 and obtain a lower number that is still greater than zero. Et cetera to ridiculously small numbers like .00000001. In other words, there was no "hard" beginning.

The definition of free will is the ability for us to choose multiple courses of action with our own mind and desires. God knowing the choices we make and the outcome of our choices has nothing to do with us deciding them or choosing them.

If God knows the choices in advance, then they're not really choices. They are predetermined and we lack free will. I ask again: Can I make a choice that surprises God? If not, then I'm not making my own decisions.

What does knowing the choices we make have to do with us choosing them, if I know for sure what candy your going to eat and you actually do eat it, by your logic you didn’t choose to eat it, rather strange.

If you know a million years before I was born, then I didn't make a choice. I was merely carrying out predetermined programming as an automaton.

God created space and time, thus is at liberty to influence it and enter in and out of it as he pleases, he’s not locked out of it, otherwise he couldn’t have created it.

If God is outside time, God can't enter time and still be outside of it.

 

[NxNW]

Am I capable of making a choice that surprises God?

No you aren’t, but that has nothing to do with making a choice out of your own will and desires.

Of course it does. If my decisions are predetermined before my birth, they are not my decisions. Again, free will cannot exist in the same universe with an omniscient God.

 

[Barney2.0]

OK, if God is outside time, then he can't commit an action that is inside time.

Your thoughts can be written down physically on paper yet still remain outside of the physical world in your mind as a non corporeal thought, so why can’t God be outside of time and still be able to commit an action inside of time?

Please give an example of an action outside time.

Why should I give you an example of an action outside of time when I’m specifically stating that God is the only being outside of time and unaffected by it, being the creator of time of course. The only example I could give is God himself and nothing other than God since only something uncreated can be outside of time.

You haven't provided evidence that time was created by God. My understanding from reading Stephen Hawking is that the beginning of time is like an open set. For example, think of the lowest number greater than zero. Any figure you provide, such as 0.1, I can simply divide by 2 and obtain a lower number that is still greater than zero. Et cetera to ridiculously small numbers like .00000001. In other words, there was no "hard" beginning.

Stephen Hawkin himself seems to disagree with you:

“All the evidence seems to indicate, that the universe has not existed forever, but that it had a beginning, about 15 billion years ago. This is probably the most remarkable discovery of modern cosmology.”

“The conclusion of this lecture is that the universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago. The beginning of real time, would have been a singularity, at which the laws of physics would have broken down. Nevertheless, the way the universe began would have been determined by the laws of physics, if the universe satisfied the no boundary condition. This says that in the imaginary time direction, space-time is finite in extent, but doesn't have any boundary or edge. The predictions of the no boundary proposal seem to agree with observation. The no boundary hypothesis also predicts that the universe will eventually collapse again. However, the contracting phase, will not have the opposite arrow of time, to the expanding phase. So we will keep on getting older, and we won't return to our youth. Because time is not going to go backwards, I think I better stop now.”

The Beginning of TIme
If what he says is truly the case that the universe began 15 billion years ago your eventually going to hit zero on your calculations.

If God knows the choices in advance, then they're not really choices. They are predetermined and we lack free will. I ask again: Can I make a choice that surprises God? If not, then I'm not making my own decisions.

You know there’s quite a big difference between knowing something was going to happen and predestining something to happen or planning it to happen in advance. The former is true for God, the latter is false. God knowing the decisions you make does not mean your pre-planned to make the decision you made.

If you know a million years before I was born, then I didn't make a choice. I was merely carrying out predetermined programming as an automaton.

So when I know for sure your going to eat the red candy 100% so I leave it for you on the desk and you do end up eating it, by your logic I pre-determined you to do it thus you had no choice to eat it in the first place, absolute nonsense. Knowing something in advance does not mean forcing you to do everything you do, you still choose to do what you do because you want to do it out of your own desires that alone is enough proof that God has not hot wired you to do everything you do. I don’t know how to stress this enough, God knowing the actions you will take doesn’t mean he chose the actions for you, you chose them out of your own will and he knew you would do them, this does not mean he made you do them.

If God is outside time, God can't enter time and still be outside of it.

Sure he can, your thoughts can be written on paper physically, yet still remain as thoughts in your mind, similarly God can enter time, yet still remain outside of time.

 

[Barney2.0]

Am I capable of making a choice that surprises God?



Of course it does. If my decisions are predetermined before my birth, they are not my decisions. Again, free will cannot exist in the same universe with an omniscient God.

I believe I already answered this, but no you can’t make a choice that surprises God, that doesn’t mean the choice is made for you as I’ve already explain, Saint John of Damascus has something interesting to say:

We ought to understand that while God knows all things beforehand, yet He does not predetermine all things. For He knows beforehand those things that are in our power, but He does not predetermine them. For it is not His will that there should be wickedness nor does He choose to compel virtue. So that predetermination is the work of the divine command based on fore-knowledge. But on the other hand God predetermines those things which are not within our power in accordance with His prescience (NPNF Series 2 Vol. IX p. 42).

Saint Gregory of Nyssa, in his catechetical lectures, also taught the following:

For He who holds sovereignty over the universe permitted something to be subject to our own control, over which each of us alone is master. Now this is the will: a thing that cannot be enslaved, being the power of self-determination (Gregory of Nyssa, The Great Catechism, MPG 47, 77A; in Gabriel 2000:27).

 

[NxNW]

Your thoughts can be written down physically on paper yet still remain outside of the physical world in your mind as a non corporeal thought, so why can’t God be outside of time and still be able to commit an action inside of time?

If God is acting inside time, then he is subject to time. Actions have duration; beginning, middle, and end.

Why should I give you an example of an action outside of time when I’m specifically stating that God is the only being outside of time and unaffected by it, being the creator of time of course. The only example I could give is God himself

God is an action?

only something uncreated can be outside of time.

Why?

Stephen Hawkin himself seems to disagree with you:

“All the evidence seems to indicate, that the universe has not existed forever, but that it had a beginning, about 15 billion years ago. This is probably the most remarkable discovery of modern cosmology.”

“The conclusion of this lecture is that the universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago....

Nothing in that quote contradicts what I've said.

The Beginning of TIme
If what he says is truly the case that the universe began 15 billion years ago your eventually going to hit zero on your calculations.

What calculations are those? I think you misunderstand the meaning of an open set, which does not include the endpoint. For example, all the real numbers greater than zero contains some pretty small numbers, but it does not contain zero. With time, you can get as early as you want, but the 'zero' moment isn't contained in that set.

God knowing the decisions you make does not mean your pre-planned to make the decision you made.

That's exactly what it means.

So when I know for sure your going to eat the red candy 100% so I leave it for you on the desk and you do end up eating it, by your logic I pre-determined you to do it thus you had no choice to eat it in the first place, absolute nonsense.

I agree it's nonsense, but not for the reasons you think. You don't have to be the one who caused my actions to be certain. But the fact that my decision is certain means it's not a choice.

Knowing something in advance does not mean forcing you to do everything you do, you still choose to do what you do because you want to do it out of your own desires that alone is enough proof that God has not hot wired you to do everything you do.

The only way choice can exist is if I can make a choice that God does not expect. Otherwise, it's not a choice.

I don’t know how to stress this enough, God knowing the actions you will take doesn’t mean he chose the actions for you

But the fact that my actions are known in advance means I'm not the one choosing them, and therefore they are not my choice. Maybe somebody else made them besides God. It doesn't matter who made the choice for me, but the point is that it's not my choice.

Sure he can, your thoughts can be written on paper physically, yet still remain as thoughts in your mind, similarly God can enter time, yet still remain outside of time.

That's like saying 2 plus 2 can be both 4 and not 4.

 

[ximmix]

Have you come across Open Theism: the belief that the future is open to God. The future is not knowable, so it is not part of God's omniscience. Which means that he can regret something that happened or that he was part of. God did not know how Saul would turn out, only his heart at the time he was chosen.

Or Neo-Molinism: God knows all possible futures, but it is not possible to know which one will come to pass. So he can regret something that happened, even though he knew it was a possibility. God knew that mankind could make a mess of things but he took the risk none-the-less.

Finally there is the possibility that our ideas about God's omniscience are overblown. Look up the verses that deal with the subject and they either imply that God knows everything about something specific or that the Jewish authors could not see the limits of God's knowledge.

In either of these scenarios, would there be Prophecies?

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

In either of these scenarios, would there be Prophecies?

Yes. I assume you are asking about future prophecies rather than general revelation (which would be a bit pointless to ask about under the circumstances).

It could be the result of inevitability. The First World War was called as such before the mid 1920's. It was inevitable that another major war would happen. If mankind can see that then so can God. But inevitability can only cater for a small subset of prophecies.

In general people see prophecy as a function of knowledge, God knows the future so he is able to prophecy. But if we take away knowledge, then if God prophecies about the future, then he has to MAKE IT HAPPEN. In other words, it becomes a function of his omnipotence, rather than omniscience. Under this theological framework God's power is brought to the fore as if he says something will happen, IT WILL happen if he so desires it.

 

[ximmix]

But if we take away knowledge, then if God prophecies about the future, then he has to MAKE IT HAPPEN. In other words, it becomes a function of his omnipotence, rather than omniscience. Under this theological framework God's power is brought to the fore as if he says something will happen, IT WILL happen if he so desires it.

In this case does God suspend free will to make it happen?

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

In this case does God suspend free will to make it happen?

Whose free will? If God has free will too and wants to will something to happen then I have no problem with the idea that he might override free will occasionally. If he couldn't override free will when necessary then clearly he wouldn't be omnipotent.

On the the other hand he might not need to. Take a simple prophecy such as someone being told that all their needs will be met.

God speaks to someone and prompts them to send some money. That person fails to respond (free will don't you know?) and so God prompts somebody else who does respond. No free will overridden and a simple prophecy fulfilled.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

If God knows in advance what choices I will make, they are not choices. Therefore, free will cannot exist in a universe with an omniscient God.

What if God does not know in advance what choice you will make? Free will can exist and so can an omniscient God (look up Open Theism or Neo-Molinism).

 

[SPF]

What if God does not know in advance what choice you will make? Free will can exist and so can an omniscient God (look up Open Theism or Neo-Molinism).

Open Theism is well... heresy~

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Open Theism is well... heresy~

Is it really? In what way?

 

[Caliban]

Why not assume that the text simply reflects flawed human thinking by imagining a god who is similar to themselves? This seems more natural and reasonable than an actual god having a logical conflict between omniscience and god having forgot.

 

[NxNW]

What if God does not know in advance what choice you will make?

Then God is not omniscient. Omniscience is an absolute; there are not degrees of it.

I think the logical conclusion is that God doesn't exist. Otherwise you end up with nonsense and contradictions.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Omniscience is an absolute; there are not degrees of it.

I totally agree (obviously not with your statement about God not being omniscient). The problem isn't with God being omniscient, but what omniscience includes.

If the future does not pre-exist then then not knowing it is not deficient. Or to put it another way if I show you an empty box and then ask you what is in it and you say 'nothing', then am I at liberty to call you 'thick' or unknowledgeable?

If there is nothing in the future, then God not knowing the future does not constitute a lack of knowledge, because God still knows everything it is possible to know.

I think the logical conclusion is that God doesn't exist. Otherwise you end up with nonsense and contradictions.

Well in my view it is the future that doesn't exist, your view sounds like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The only contradictions that occur come with your preconceived ideas about the nature of reality & God.