How can God be simultaneously a Trinity of Persons, and yet one?

yeshuaslavejeff

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QUOTE="DavidPT, post: 72427221, member: 391302"]Something more mind boggling than that, assuming a trinity, this would mean that there is not only one person with no beginning, but 3 persons with no beginning. I can't even comprehend how one person can have no beginning, let alone 3 persons. I believe wholeheartedly that God has no beginning and no end, it's just that I can't begin to grasp how the no beginning part is even possible. Multiply that by 3, it's really mind blowing then. Despite that, I'm still in the trinitarian camp, though I have to wonder why a lot of times.[/QUOTE
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Return to trusting only what you can read from God's Word.
It is wonderfully simple, always truth, and refreshing for our souls, life for our spirits, in Christ Jesus.

It is all the added on 'tradition' that sends people off astray from truth, if they permit it to.
 
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This is something that's bugged me for quite a while and I can't seem to get my head around it.
I constantly see things which, to my mind, seem to contradict, sometimes God is referred to as part or the whole of the Holy Trinity, but then in the Creeds, we profess that we believe in one God.
In short, I struggle with the idea of 3-in-1 and 1-in-3 aspect of God
You are not alone. I struggled mainly with God and the Son of God until this awesome Pastor's wife explained it to me this way. Water, Ice and Steam are all separate and different forms of H20. The water represents God. Consider the oceans, their vastness, mysteries but mostly water holds the power to extinguish fire which we equate with Satan. The ice represents Jesus Christ who walked the earth in solid form. The steam represents the Holy Spirit which rises from both water and ice, then evaporates and is unseen, but we know it exist. As I grew in my faith, I began to study God's word in depth. In Genesis God Said, "Let "us" make a man. So God made a man in His image." We have a soul liken to the Holy Spirit. We have a body liken to Christ and we have a mind liken to God. The mind can still function without the use of the body, but the body cannot function without the mind. I look at the Living God as the brains of the operation of the Trinity. God is one in that all three forms are completely divine while all three forms play different roles. In His infinite wisdom God knew we would need all three. God Bless, Suz
 
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tampasteve

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You are not alone. I struggled mainly with God and the Son of God until this awesome Pastor's wife explained it to me this way. Water, Ice and Steam are all separate and different forms of H20. The water represents God.

Unfortunately, a nice and understandable as that is, that would be Modalism. Modalism is deemed a heresy by Trinitarian Christians and says God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes, in this case God is H2O that is revealed in steam, ice, and liquid.

I think many of us find the concept difficult, and it is. We are trying to explain something that is almost outside our ability to understand, a Mystery as it were. Personally I think there is room in Christianity for different (limited) understandings of God, but in this case the example would not be mainstream Trinitarian Christianity.

This graphic might be of help, it has been used in the Western Church since medieval times.

Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English
[Public domain], by User:AnonMoos (earlier version of SVG file Sumudu Fernando), from Wikimedia Commons
 
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Albion

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QUOTE="DavidPT, post: 72427221, member: 391302"]Something more mind boggling than that, assuming a trinity, this would mean that there is not only one person with no beginning, but 3 persons with no beginning. I can't even comprehend how one person can have no beginning, let alone 3 persons. I believe wholeheartedly that God has no beginning and no end, it's just that I can't begin to grasp how the no beginning part is even possible. Multiply that by 3, it's really mind blowing then. Despite that, I'm still in the trinitarian camp, though I have to wonder why a lot of times.
Keep in mind that we are not talking about three individuals when we say "persons." We normally use the word to mean different, separate, beings, but that is not the meaning in Trinitarian theology or in the Nicene Creed.
 
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jwilliams190800

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The doctrine of the Trinity is our attempt to explain God's inner relationship to Himself . We are not very good at it but that is not entirely our fault. If you accept that the doctrine is vague and seemingly contradictory by necessity because God cannot be thoroughly explained using the tools we have, then perhaps you will not find it a stumbling block to your faith?
I guess I don't really like vague things, so for me, it is a stumbling block. It's not that it stops me from being faithful, but it stops me from loving God with all my being
 
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The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are; therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.

The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. Understand that this is not in any way suggesting three Gods. Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not found in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God—three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who are God. Of real importance is that the concept represented by the word “Trinity” does exist in Scripture. The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:

1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The following chart will help show how the doctrine of the Trinity is systematically derived from Scripture.
View attachment 222931

There have been many attempts to develop illustrations of the Trinity. However, none of the popular illustrations are completely accurate. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves, just as the skin, flesh, and seeds of the apple are parts of it, not the apple itself. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not parts of God; each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better, but it still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration.

The doctrine of the Trinity has been a divisive issue throughout the entire history of the Christian church. While the core aspects of the Trinity are clearly presented in God’s Word, some of the side issues are not as explicitly clear. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God—but there is only one God. That is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Beyond that, the issues are, to a certain extent, debatable and non-essential. Rather than attempting to fully define the Trinity with our finite human minds, we would be better served by focusing on the fact of God's greatness and His infinitely higher nature. “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Romans 11:33-34).​
Hi, can you message me that table please so that I can study this. Thank you.
 
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Devin P

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This is something that's bugged me for quite a while and I can't seem to get my head around it.
I constantly see things which, to my mind, seem to contradict, sometimes God is referred to as part or the whole of the Holy Trinity, but then in the Creeds, we profess that we believe in one God.
In short, I struggle with the idea of 3-in-1 and 1-in-3 aspect of God
Well, personhood isn't really ever attributed to the spirit. The father and the son are one, as a husband and wife are one. But the trinity is an idea that started in the council of nicaea. But biblically, it's not really supported, and now since Catholicism has pushed it for nearly 2000 years, everyone traditionally accepts it.
 
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jwilliams190800

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The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are; therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.

The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. Understand that this is not in any way suggesting three Gods. Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not found in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God—three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who are God. Of real importance is that the concept represented by the word “Trinity” does exist in Scripture. The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:

1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The following chart will help show how the doctrine of the Trinity is systematically derived from Scripture.
View attachment 222931

There have been many attempts to develop illustrations of the Trinity. However, none of the popular illustrations are completely accurate. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves, just as the skin, flesh, and seeds of the apple are parts of it, not the apple itself. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not parts of God; each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better, but it still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration.

The doctrine of the Trinity has been a divisive issue throughout the entire history of the Christian church. While the core aspects of the Trinity are clearly presented in God’s Word, some of the side issues are not as explicitly clear. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God—but there is only one God. That is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Beyond that, the issues are, to a certain extent, debatable and non-essential. Rather than attempting to fully define the Trinity with our finite human minds, we would be better served by focusing on the fact of God's greatness and His infinitely higher nature. “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Romans 11:33-34).​
Quite a thorough explanation, and I think it is useful to understand scripturally where the basis of the Trinity is, especially the part about translating Hebrew to English, so thank you
 
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jwilliams190800

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I'd love to tell you, but he never bothered to explain it to me either. Instead of focusing on what you don't understand, focus on parts you do understand. That should keep you busy enough. When you stand before God, he will not ask you how come you never figured out the trinity.
I have in the past moved past it and focused on other things, but it always keeps coming back, which is why I've started asking, in the hope to find other views and some clarification from scripture
 
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The Times

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This is something that's bugged me for quite a while and I can't seem to get my head around it.
I constantly see things which, to my mind, seem to contradict, sometimes God is referred to as part or the whole of the Holy Trinity, but then in the Creeds, we profess that we believe in one God.
In short, I struggle with the idea of 3-in-1 and 1-in-3 aspect of God

You are one being, yet you can exhibit multiple personalities within your being. This would be called multiple personality disorder.

However God is one of his kind, the first and the last of his kind, the Alpha and Omega. An infinite being, responsible for all things. Within the one God being, exists coeternally, and coequally three distinct personas/personalities. How that is, is not revealed.

But, if you were one being, who exhibited multiple personalities, then you are still one in being, but your personas are distinct. Within humanity this would be a psychological sickness, however within God it is completion. That is why in the Old Testament their prayers always repeated Holy three times. Every person within the one God is God because they are the same one substance, that is being, meaning I Am that I Am.
 
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JoeP222w

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This is something that's bugged me for quite a while and I can't seem to get my head around it.
I constantly see things which, to my mind, seem to contradict, sometimes God is referred to as part or the whole of the Holy Trinity, but then in the Creeds, we profess that we believe in one God.
In short, I struggle with the idea of 3-in-1 and 1-in-3 aspect of God

Definitions are important. Creeds, while possibly helpful, are not infallible definitions of the Christian faith.

Basic definition of the Trinity:

Within the one being of God there exists 3 co-existent and co-eternal persons: namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Being and Person are not the same thing.
A rock has a being, since it exists. But a rock is not a person.
A human is a being and is a person.
God is supernatural. He is 3 persons in one being.

God is not 3 beings in one being.
God is not one being in 3 beings.
God is not 3 persons in one person.
God is not one person is 3 persons.
God is not one person in 3 beings.

If you consider God to be any of the statements above that say "God is not ..." then you have entered into heresy.

God is 3 persons in one being.

The Father is fully God, not part, not 33% God. He is fully God.
The Son is fully God, not part, not 33% God. He is fully God.
The Holy Spirit is fully God, not part, not 33% God. He is fully God.

The Father is not the Son, nor the Holy Spirit, in person.
The Son is not the Father, nor the Holy Spirit, in person.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father, nor the Son, in person.


Recommended reading: The Forgotten Trinity by James R. White.
 
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JoeP222w

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It still remains something that is very confusing, I've spoken to a few priests about this, and all I got was that God is one, and 3 at the same time, which is a contradiction.

Not a contradiction, just an incomplete definition.
 
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Creeds, while possibly helpful, are not infallible definitions of the Christian faith.

The creeds are the very essence of the faith, while not infallible in one sense, in others they are. The Ecumenical Councils of Nicaea I (325) and Constantinople I (381) promulgated the Nicene Creed, an infallible testament of our faith. The Apostles Creed and Athanasian Creed, while not confirmed like the Nicene Creed, they are testaments to the faith and held as Doctrine by all Christian Churches following Trinitarianism. They literally teach the basics of the faith from a Trinitarian perspective.
 
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Marvin Knox

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How can God be simultaneously a Trinity of Persons, and yet one?
I approach the subject from what I suppose some would call a philosophical approach - even though it is also quite biblical.

That which is eternal and self existent is God by definition - whatever form that thing or person exists in.

That which is eternal and self existent cannot be contingent on anything or anyone.

Therefore none of the attributes of God can be independent or divisible one from the other. They must, by definition, be eternally linked. Any true consideration of God must be a consideration of one God. More than one God is not possible by definition as I understand the definition of God.

This is the state which the 3 persons of the Trinity are presented by the scriptures as existing eternally in - just as in the case of the other attributes of God.

They are presented as being in complete unity one with the other at all times - so much so that if you have seen one (or the manifestation of one) you have seen the others (or the manifestations of the others).

Therefore the existence of the 3 persons of the Trinity do not contradict in any way the concepts involved in the definition of the one true God.

If they were presented in the scriptures as thinking and acting independently at any time - that presentation would indeed violate the basic logical definition of God (who by definition must be one).

Much more could be said, of course. But that's the basic idea.
 
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This is something that's bugged me for quite a while and I can't seem to get my head around it. I constantly see things which, to my mind, seem to contradict, sometimes God is referred to as part or the whole of the Holy Trinity, but then in the Creeds, we profess that we believe in one God. In short, I struggle with the idea of 3-in-1 and 1-in-3 aspect of God

Take comfort friend, you are not alone, I think many if not most struggle with wrapping our minds around the doctrines of God, but then again, we are talking about God, and we are limited, finite, whereas God is infinite and powerful beyond our comprehension. Concerning the supernatural, we will always struggle, especially in our own understanding and methods especially if we depend not on the understanding and methods of the Spirit of God. Historically one of if not the most lengthy discourses on the Trinity can be found in the writings of St. Augustine, another ECF, St. Athanasius is heralded as a staunch defender of the doctrine of the Trinity as well.
 
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For many years I have struggled to understand the doctrine of the trinity. To say it is a mystery that we are not expected to comprehend simply doesn't cut it for me. Some time ago I discovered that in the original formulation of the trinity, the word in Greek which we traditionally have interpreted to mean "persons", as in "three persons in one God" is actually the same word used to designate the mask worn by actors in Greco-Roman theater. We cannot call this a "person" but we can certainly call it a "persona". This insight has put a totally new spin on the entire concept for me. We finite creatures cannot possibly hope to describe our transcendent God, but we can speak of the modes or roles or personae that assist our understanding. God as creator/father, God as spirit/sustainer, and the glimpse of God we obtain in the life and teaching of Jesus. In other words, trinity is not a description of God but is, rather, a description of the human experience of God in the language of fourth century Greek speaking Christianity. We are not limited to just these three. Any persona that promotes our understanding of and our relationship to God is completely acceptable. God could be mother as well as father. God could be Wisdom / Word / Allah / Krishna / Manitou. God's possibilities are endless. These are merely our human images of God. God is, as always, ONE.
 
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