How can God be simultaneously a Trinity of Persons, and yet one?

[Lily of Valleys]

The reason why God has not bothered to explain His three Person nature, is that He doesn't have to. Why should He? Does the Potter has to justify Himself to the clay?

If that is the case, would you say whether a person truly understands the concept of trinity would not be essential for salvation, nor should it be a criteria for whether the person is considered to be a Christian?

 

[AvgJoe]

no where in ot can you find god or any prophet saying father son holy spirit or that god is 3 persons but 1 god.

For sure, the doctrine of the Trinity is not plainly revealed in the Old Testament. Without the teaching of the New Testament we would not be aware of this truth. Although not explicitly mentioned, the basis of the doctrine is found in the Old Testament.

A hint of the doctrine of the Trinity can be found in the first verse of the Bible.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1).​

The Hebrew word for God is Elohim. Elohim is a plural noun but it is used here with a singular verb bara. In the remainder of the Old Testament, when Elohim speaks of the true God, it is always used with a singular verb. The conclusion to be drawn is that in some sense God is both singular and plural. The doctrine of the Trinity states this - within the nature of the one God there are three eternal persons.

We find a further hint of the Trinity in Genesis 1.

Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth" (Genesis 1:26).​

The phrase "let us" again gives the idea of plurality. The word "us" cannot refer to angels because angels do not create.

Therefore, in the first chapter of the Bible we have a hint of the Trinity with the plural title Elohim used with a singular verb and God speaking and saying, "Let us."

The words "let us" is used elsewhere of God speaking in Genesis. After Adam and Eve sinned the Bible records.

Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever (Genesis 3:22).​

At the incident at the Tower of Babel we read God saying.

Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech (Genesis 11:7).​

Isaiah the prophet recorded God saying.

Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me" (Isaiah 6:8).​

There is another instance in the Isaiah where there is a second plural name for God.

For your Maker is your husband, the LORD of hosts is his name; the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called (Isaiah 54:5).​

The word translated, "Maker" is plural in Hebrew. Therefore we have a second Hebrew word that is plural that is used of God.


There is one statement in the Old Testament that gives a fairly clear indication of the Trinity.

Come near me and listen to this: "From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there. "And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit. This is what the LORD says - your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go (Isaiah 48:16-17).​

In verse sixteen, God the Son is speaking. He identifies the Father [the Sovereign Lord] and His Spirit as having sent Him. In the next verse, the Son is clearly spoken of as the Lord. Consequently these verses identify three distinct Persons who are God without denying the fact there is only one God.


The Old Testament also makes a distinction between the Lord who is in heaven and the one on earth.

Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the LORD out of the heavens. Thus He overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities - and also the vegetation in the land (Genesis 19:24).​

In addition, each member of the Trinity is mentioned in the Old Testament.

There are Old Testament passages that refer to God the Father.

For you are our father, though Abraham does not know us and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O LORD, are our father; our Redeemer from of old is your name (Isaiah 63:16).​

Malachi wrote.

Have we not all one father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our ancestors? (Malachi 2:10).​

The Son finds mention in the Old Testament.

The Psalmist wrote.

Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity; you love righteousness and hate wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions (Psalm 45:6-7).​

In the 2nd Psalm we read.

I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill. I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you (Psalm 2:6-7).​

Later, in that same Psalm, it says.

Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in him (Psalm 2:12).​

In the Book of Proverbs it says.

Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know! (Proverbs 30:4).​

God's Son, the Messiah, is described with divine titles.

"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up to David Or up from David's line} a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land" (Jeremiah 23:5-6).​

Isaiah wrote.

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6).​

The Angel of the Lord has the power to forgive sins

See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him (Exodus 23:20-21).​

The Holy Spirit, or the "Spirit of the Lord," is also mentioned in the Old Testament.

In the Book of Genesis we read.

Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters (Genesis 1:2).​

Isaiah recorded the following.

The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him - the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD - and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears (Isaiah 11:2-3).​

Isaiah also wrote.

The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners (Isaiah 61:1).​

Later Isaiah wrote.

Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them (Isaiah 63:10).​

The Spirit of God is distinguished from the Lord in the account leading up to the Flood.

Then the LORD said, "My spirit shall not abide in mortals forever, for they are flesh; their days shall be one hundred twenty years" (Genesis 6:3)​

When Jacob blessed his son Joseph, he used the name of God three times. Each time God's name was identified differently.

Then he blessed Joseph and said, "May the God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day, the Angel who has delivered me from all harm may he bless these boys. May they be called by my name and the names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac, and may they increase greatly upon the earth (Genesis 48:15-16).​

In conclusion, although the Trinity is not explicitly taught in the Old Testament, the basis of this doctrine is certainly found there.

 

[tampasteve]

Jesus knew he could never fit the expectations of a Jewish Messiah, however he allowed the Father to untangle the mess between the expectations of the Jews and the reality of who Jesus really was and still is. He allowed his followers to see him as the expected deliverer even though he was in fact very different. Judaism has NO concept, belief, theology or doctrine of God having a divine Son in heaven. Jesus, the Son of God, do not fulfill the expectations of the Messiah, he left! And in leaving he left his followers in that age with the speculation that he would soon return. He didn't.

Ok, I decline to reply as it's off topic. Have a nice evening.

 

[Lily of Valleys]

Keep in mind that we are not talking about three individuals when we say "persons." We normally use the word to mean different, separate, beings, but that is not the meaning in Trinitarian theology or in the Nicene Creed.

I have always found the modern English word "person" to be problematic to be used to describe a member of the trinity. It is as if saying Father, Son and the Spirit are three separate people who are different individuals that have different personalities and have their own likes and dislikes, which we know that is not true biblically.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Jesus knew he could never fit the expectations of a Jewish Messiah, however he allowed the Father to untangle the mess between the expectations of the Jews and the reality of who Jesus really was and still is. He allowed his followers to see him as the expected deliverer even though he was in fact very different. Judaism has NO concept, belief, theology or doctrine of God having a divine Son in heaven. Jesus, the Son of God, do not fulfill the expectations of the Messiah, he left! And in leaving he left his followers in that age with the speculation that he would soon return. He didn't.

So wrong....

JESUS PERFECTLY fits YHVH'S description throughout TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS and the NEW TESTAMENT, more than you have ever even ssen or thought of or counted (me too btw - so many PERFECT SCRIPTURES of MESSIAH JESUS) ...

Also,
NO SPECULATION that JESUS would return soon.... IT IS ALWAYS AS WRITTEN,
and all the Apostles and disciples of JESUS trained by JESUS and taught by JESUS
believed perfectly HE WILL RETURN SOON (all of Ekklesia expects JESUS to return soon ! HE IS RETURNING for all those who are EAGERLY WATCHING FOR HIM) ...

.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I have always found the modern English word "person" to be problematic

YES! GOOD ! It is written that YHVH is NOT a person, "not a man, that HE could/should lie" . This came up a while back.
MEN have perhaps for centuries wrongly referred to YHVH as "a person", but that has been due to faulty teachings and doctrines and dogmas and practices, whatever.....

 

[The Times]

Does that mean that the Trinitarian experience is wrong? No, I don’t think it means that, but it does mean that the Trinitarian language, which we use as we to seek to relate the Trinitarian experience is simply irrelevant.
~~~ John Spong

John Spong character, that you quote has been quoted as saying to the Late Dr Walter Martin, that he does not regard the words of Jesus as the final authority in all matters.

What Spong does to the authority of Jesus and the written word is what is deemed as a Liberal Higher Criticism of the Word of God and his Christ.

Spong relates truth to his experience, even at the very cost of dismissing the authority of Jesus.

Here is a link that talks about this character.

What’s Wrong With Bishop Spong? - CMI Mobile

This is what Spong leads his experience to make him believe.....

The religion of evolutionary scientism
Spong jettisons belief in God as the supernatural lawgiver. He sees this belief arising when ‘men and women, groping for the power to express what they found in him [God], discovered the inadequacy of language, so they lapsed into myth and poetry’ (THL p. 184). He argues that this belief should be rejected in favour of the light of truth which he thinks is the monopoly of objective science.

Spong labels the view that ethics, especially sexual ethics, can be derived from the Bible as ‘fundamentalist’ and ‘pre-modern’, whereas he claims his new framework is ‘modern’ and ‘scientific’. He says:

I am amazed that given the knowledge revolution of the last 600 years, anyone could still regard the Bible as the dictated word of God, inerrant and eternal (BW p. 3).
In Spong’s world, the findings of objective science continually chip away at our ‘pre-modern’ moral reference, the Bible. For instance, science supposedly has proven that we must change our beliefs about homosexuality:

Contemporary research has today uncovered new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality — is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality. (LS p. 71)
Science, Spong believes, is a neutral sifter and accumulator of facts which produces conclusions based on observation and is untarnished by prejudice. Belief in a literal Bible is primitive and produces such ‘mistakes’ as beliefs in Christ’s bodily resurrection and virginal conception, and the idea that homosexual acts are sinful. But now, thanks to science, we have the facts. We know that Jesus neither rose from the grave nor was He born of a virgin, and that homosexual acts are just as valid as heterosexual acts.

The religion of consensus of experiential subjectivity is what is deemed authority of truth, over and above the authority of Jesus Christ and scripture. Truly it is a form of progressive liberal godliness that totally denies the authority of God. (2 Timothy 3:5)

 

[Lily of Valleys]

This is something that's bugged me for quite a while and I can't seem to get my head around it.
I constantly see things which, to my mind, seem to contradict, sometimes God is referred to as part or the whole of the Holy Trinity, but then in the Creeds, we profess that we believe in one God.
In short, I struggle with the idea of 3-in-1 and 1-in-3 aspect of God

All those human doctrines are just human attempts to understand the nature of God. All you need to know and understand is the scriptural descriptions of God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. (Philippians 2:5-7 NASB)

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. (Colossians 1:15 NASB)

For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him (Colossians 1:19 NASB)

And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. (Hebrews 1:3 NASB)

If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.” (John 14:7 NASB)

He who has seen Me has seen the Father (John 14:9 NASB)​

 

[JackRT]

We find a further hint of the Trinity in Genesis 1.

Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth" (Genesis 1:26).
The phrase "let us" again gives the idea of plurality. The word "us" cannot refer to angels because angels do not create.

Therefore, in the first chapter of the Bible we have a hint of the Trinity with the plural title Elohim used with a singular verb and God speaking and saying, "Let us."

Henotheism is a subset of polytheistic belief. The believer accepts that there are many gods but is permitted to worship just one. This stage of belief is transitional between polytheism and monotheism. The creation narrative in Genesis 2 and following illustrates this well. The Elohim "us" refers to the pantheon of ancient MidEastern gods of whom El (also known as Yah) was the chief god and the only one the early Hebrews were permitted to worship. By the time that Genesis 1 was composed some 300 years later the transition to full monotheism was complete.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

OBVIOUSLY, avoid spong.

 

[JackRT]

John Spong character, that you quote has been quoted as saying to the Late Dr Walter Martin, that he does not regard the words of Jesus as the final authority in all matters.

This is John Spong

View attachment 222971

What Spong does to the authority of Jesus and the written word is what is deemed as a Liberal Higher Criticism of the Word of God and his Christ.

Spong relates truth to his experience, even at the very cost of dismissing the authority of Jesus.

Here is a link that talks about this character.

What’s Wrong With Bishop Spong? - CMI Mobile

This is what Spong leads his experience to make him believe.....

The religion of evolutionary scientism
Spong jettisons belief in God as the supernatural lawgiver. He sees this belief arising when ‘men and women, groping for the power to express what they found in him [God], discovered the inadequacy of language, so they lapsed into myth and poetry’ (THL p. 184). He argues that this belief should be rejected in favour of the light of truth which he thinks is the monopoly of objective science.

Spong labels the view that ethics, especially sexual ethics, can be derived from the Bible as ‘fundamentalist’ and ‘pre-modern’, whereas he claims his new framework is ‘modern’ and ‘scientific’. He says:

I am amazed that given the knowledge revolution of the last 600 years, anyone could still regard the Bible as the dictated word of God, inerrant and eternal (BW p. 3).
In Spong’s world, the findings of objective science continually chip away at our ‘pre-modern’ moral reference, the Bible. For instance, science supposedly has proven that we must change our beliefs about homosexuality:

Contemporary research has today uncovered new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality — is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality. (LS p. 71)
Science, Spong believes, is a neutral sifter and accumulator of facts which produces conclusions based on observation and is untarnished by prejudice. Belief in a literal Bible is primitive and produces such ‘mistakes’ as beliefs in Christ’s bodily resurrection and virginal conception, and the idea that homosexual acts are sinful. But now, thanks to science, we have the facts. We know that Jesus neither rose from the grave nor was He born of a virgin, and that homosexual acts are just as valid as heterosexual acts.

The religion of consensus of experiential subjectivity is what is deemed authority of truth, over and above the authority of Jesus Christ and scripture. Truly it is a form of progressive liberal godliness that totally denies the authority of God. (2 Timothy 3:5)

The Bible also recognizes that prophetic voices are seldom appreciated or even accepted in their own communities.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

They didn't know any better, but because the preist class ( men dressed up in costumes) claimed that their writings were Gods writings, growth in understanding via revelation has been stunted.

Not at all for the Ekklesia is YHVH hindered by anything man or men have done or could have done.
When YHVH grants understanding, it is pure and gentle and truth and strong and unchangeable , from Him, via revelation,
and ALWAYS, always, in line with all of HIS WORD , SCRIPTURE,
perfect harmony with all SCRIPTURE, HIS PLAN, HIS PURPOSE, and SALVATION in JESUS !

 

[Ματθαίος]

This is something that's bugged me for quite a while and I can't seem to get my head around it.
I constantly see things which, to my mind, seem to contradict, sometimes God is referred to as part or the whole of the Holy Trinity, but then in the Creeds, we profess that we believe in one God.
In short, I struggle with the idea of 3-in-1 and 1-in-3 aspect of God

Jesus did say He and the Father are One, didn't He? So it must be true regardless of our ability to grasp the idea. I can't understand a thing about electricity, but it doesn't prevent me flip that switch on every night.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If that is the case, would you say whether a person truly understands the concept of trinity would not be essential for salvation, nor should it be a criteria for whether the person is considered to be a Christian?

I don't think that it is essential for salvation to be able to understand the full nature and character of God. If that was so, He would have made it abundantly clear to us. The New Testament puts the requirements for salvation very clearly - believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, believe that He rose from the dead, and be baptised to give public affirmation to your belief. The nature and character of God comes by revelation to those who believe, and He shows just enough to understand that He is a loving, joyful, peaceable, gentle and kind Person who is not willing that any should perish but that all may come to repentance. What saddens Him is that not all will believe on Jesus and come to repentance.

 

[RisenInJesus]

This is something that's bugged me for quite a while and I can't seem to get my head around it.
I constantly see things which, to my mind, seem to contradict, sometimes God is referred to as part or the whole of the Holy Trinity, but then in the Creeds, we profess that we believe in one God.
In short, I struggle with the idea of 3-in-1 and 1-in-3 aspect of God

For years I was adamantly opposed to the Trinity. I remember one week visiting a Christian church and they sang the hymn, "Holy, Holy, Holy" ...with the words God in three persons, blessed trinity. Afterwards, I said to my husband, '"the sermon was pretty good and the people were friendly, but how can anyone believe anything as nonsensical as the trinity?" Well, two weeks later I came to understand my need for a Savior and trusted Jesus for salvation and eternal life. It was as if my understanding was completely opened because from that point on the trinity made perfect sense. For one thing I believe in One God who is complete within Himself, yet God is LOVE and relational. So who has God expressed love to and lived in relationship with from all eternity past before creation, if not between the three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

You may find the following linked articles interesting...
The Trinity
Knowing Our Triune Godhttps://www.thebereancall.org/content/nuggets-urgent-call-serious-faith-dave-hunt-nature-and-trinity
Nuggets from An Urgent Call to a Serious Faith by Dave Hunt - Nature and Trinity

 

[ViaCrucis]

no where in ot can you find god or any prophet saying father son holy spirit or that god is 3 persons but 1 god.

No where in the OT or NT will you find God or any prophet identifying which books make up the Canon of Holy Scripture either. But I don't plan on tossing my Bible away because of that.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[thesunisout]

This is something that's bugged me for quite a while and I can't seem to get my head around it.
I constantly see things which, to my mind, seem to contradict, sometimes God is referred to as part or the whole of the Holy Trinity, but then in the Creeds, we profess that we believe in one God.
In short, I struggle with the idea of 3-in-1 and 1-in-3 aspect of God

Luke 1:37

For with God nothing shall be impossible

It may seem impossible to us but with God nothing is impossible. Our job isn't to dissect it, our job is to believe it

 

[Jonathan Leo]

This is something that's bugged me for quite a while and I can't seem to get my head around it.
I constantly see things which, to my mind, seem to contradict, sometimes God is referred to as part or the whole of the Holy Trinity, but then in the Creeds, we profess that we believe in one God.
In short, I struggle with the idea of 3-in-1 and 1-in-3 aspect of God

Three persons, One God head
Like an egg, it has a shell, a yoke and a white, three parts, 1 egg

 

[Norbert L]

This is something that's bugged me for quite a while and I can't seem to get my head around it.
I constantly see things which, to my mind, seem to contradict, sometimes God is referred to as part or the whole of the Holy Trinity, but then in the Creeds, we profess that we believe in one God.
In short, I struggle with the idea of 3-in-1 and 1-in-3 aspect of God

It's about events that have occurred in the far past that have been recorded in the OT. Have you wondered how supposedly monotheistic Jews in the first century could do this John 20:28, without the NT and not having the doctrine of the trinity? There are reasons for it, they are found in the OT. They did not need the doctrine of the trinity to explain it. Here's the explanation for it given by one of those scholars who uses everyday plain english to get the point across:

 

[Netgear]

This is something that's bugged me for quite a while and I can't seem to get my head around it.
I constantly see things which, to my mind, seem to contradict, sometimes God is referred to as part or the whole of the Holy Trinity, but then in the Creeds, we profess that we believe in one God.
In short, I struggle with the idea of 3-in-1 and 1-in-3 aspect of God

How does God perform miracles? Lots of things about God that we cannot answer.