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how can evolution describe sight, and hearing?
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Stormy
Senior Contributor
Jerry: Good morning! 
Ok... Can you help me find answers to some questions that this thread as raised?
(1) Where did I get my blue eyes? Why would I and people like me evolve blue eyes?
(2) Darwin's evolution does not have us only evolving from apes but also from many different lower species. Correct?
These lower species had eyes. Correct?
According to what I can find these lower species had eyes designed and wired quite differently than the human. Correct?
According to people who point away from intelligent design these eyes were actually constructed better than the human eye. Correct?
So explain to me what happened. If our eyes are truly inferior than why was this design selected when we were already in possession of a better design? How and why did retinas get turned and wiring become changed?
Ok... Can you help me find answers to some questions that this thread as raised?
(1) Where did I get my blue eyes? Why would I and people like me evolve blue eyes?
(2) Darwin's evolution does not have us only evolving from apes but also from many different lower species. Correct?
These lower species had eyes. Correct?
According to what I can find these lower species had eyes designed and wired quite differently than the human. Correct?
According to people who point away from intelligent design these eyes were actually constructed better than the human eye. Correct?
So explain to me what happened. If our eyes are truly inferior than why was this design selected when we were already in possession of a better design? How and why did retinas get turned and wiring become changed?
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Originally posted by Stormy
Jerry: Good morning!
Good morning!!
(I'm afraid I can't stay long - I have to be getting ready and going to work...)
I'll give it a shot.
Blue eyes probably evolved only once in humans (probably in europe a few thousand years ago). One adaptation of the vertebrate eye is an iris that is pigmented (contains proteins that absorb some light and and reflect some light) to keep light that does not enter through the pupil and lens from being interfered with by other light entering the eye through transluscent surfaces. This pigmentation probably arose gradually by small changes in the proteins that are embedded in cell membranes. After that, a small change in the protein's structure would affect its properties: i.e. which wavelengths were absorbed, and which were reflected. The blue eyed allele may differ in only a few amino acids from the brown eyed allele. Since most mutations are recessive with respect to their parent genes, blue eyes are a recessive trait, and you have to get a blue-eyed gene from each of your parents in order to flash your baby blues.
Yes
Quite a few of them did... all of the vertebrates, and many of the invertebrates that led to them.
No, not according to the theory. The basic wiring was the same in the entire vertebrate lineage, with different adaptations making minor modifications to it as time went on.
No. The only eyes that had better construction arose in the separate lineage of the cephalopods. They arose from eyes that developed independently in the ancient ancestors of the cephalopods and the ancient ancestors of our line. The two ancestors were cousins of one another.
It was never available in our gene pool. Our line had already split from the arthropod and mollusk lines when our eyes began to evolve. Without the better arrrangement there to select for, we cannot say that the design we do have was selected over the better design. Our's selected adaptations that made the best of the basic arrangement of the system available in our gene pool.
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By the way - before you ask.. the blue eye mutation would have been selected out long ago if there was no reproductive advantage to it. You are likely thinking "how on earth do blue eyes contribute to survival"? Well they contribute to the survival of the families that possess the gene by adding to the reproductive success of that lineage. Its called sexual selection.
sexual selection.
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Storm... I can do something of the sort - although I will likely have to leave it to others to fill in some of my blanks..
See evolution tends to deal with the immediate ancestry of groups - so there are no single studies that trace the history of human evolution back to the first proto-cell. There is a large body of research that traces human evolution through the hominids to a primate ancestor of humans and chimps. There is a separate body of research that traces the primates to a eutherian mammal common ancestor, and another which traces the eutherian mammals back through the marsupials to the synapsids (reptile like creatures). These are traced to a certain amphibian group that I cannot name, and the amphibians are believed to have been derived from lobe-finned fish. The lobe-finned fish were a subset of the teleost (fish with jaws), who are derived from the jawless fish (descendents today include lampreys). I'm not sure how much is known about the history of jawlish fish. They were the first vertebrates, and were preceded by a large variety of invertebrates. Some invertebrate (my guess is a kind of large eel-like worm with a primitive spinal chord) is the likely ancestor of the jawless fish, and before that, another, more simple worm probably gave rise to the eel-like worm. Then we get lost in the pre-cambrian. At some point there was a very simple multicellular form probably more like a sponge than anything, and before that only unicellular organisms. Protozoans.
I'm sure you wanted more info, but that's about all I can give you, and it gets kind of speculative toward the end. There are likely others who know much more about it than I do..
Sorry to take so long to respond.. busy day at work today.
See evolution tends to deal with the immediate ancestry of groups - so there are no single studies that trace the history of human evolution back to the first proto-cell. There is a large body of research that traces human evolution through the hominids to a primate ancestor of humans and chimps. There is a separate body of research that traces the primates to a eutherian mammal common ancestor, and another which traces the eutherian mammals back through the marsupials to the synapsids (reptile like creatures). These are traced to a certain amphibian group that I cannot name, and the amphibians are believed to have been derived from lobe-finned fish. The lobe-finned fish were a subset of the teleost (fish with jaws), who are derived from the jawless fish (descendents today include lampreys). I'm not sure how much is known about the history of jawlish fish. They were the first vertebrates, and were preceded by a large variety of invertebrates. Some invertebrate (my guess is a kind of large eel-like worm with a primitive spinal chord) is the likely ancestor of the jawless fish, and before that, another, more simple worm probably gave rise to the eel-like worm. Then we get lost in the pre-cambrian. At some point there was a very simple multicellular form probably more like a sponge than anything, and before that only unicellular organisms. Protozoans.
I'm sure you wanted more info, but that's about all I can give you, and it gets kind of speculative toward the end. There are likely others who know much more about it than I do..
Sorry to take so long to respond.. busy day at work today.
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Stormy
Senior Contributor
Look me in the eye!
It seems that we somehow understand this at a very early age. As soon as a child learns to lie he also automatically avoids eye contact.
Now how would this evolve? It seems almost like a moral issue. Eyes that tell the truth even when our words lie. I think that I had heard once they are making detectors that tell if a person is lying or otherwise a danger by evaluating the eye. Anyone know what I am referring to?
It seems that we somehow understand this at a very early age. As soon as a child learns to lie he also automatically avoids eye contact.
Now how would this evolve? It seems almost like a moral issue. Eyes that tell the truth even when our words lie. I think that I had heard once they are making detectors that tell if a person is lying or otherwise a danger by evaluating the eye. Anyone know what I am referring to?
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Humans, like most primates, are social creatures. Instinctive (and even learned) behaviors contribute to our survival and success as social creatures.
Quite a few of our social cues are learned, but some are hardwired (as this appears to be). Why? *shrug*. It may be a simple fluke. It may be that lying simply doesn't come naturally to us (it is a feature of advanced cognition. To tell a lie requires creativity and heavy thinking, compared to telling the truth).
But all-in-all, it's no more fascinating than the complex sexual culture of bonobos.
As for "a list of things we evolved from", I'm not sure what you mean. Earlier hominids?
Quite a few of our social cues are learned, but some are hardwired (as this appears to be). Why? *shrug*. It may be a simple fluke. It may be that lying simply doesn't come naturally to us (it is a feature of advanced cognition. To tell a lie requires creativity and heavy thinking, compared to telling the truth).
But all-in-all, it's no more fascinating than the complex sexual culture of bonobos.
As for "a list of things we evolved from", I'm not sure what you mean. Earlier hominids?
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