How can creation week be literal 24 hour days?

[mmksparbud]

I GUESS I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY. You have to remember though that man was made from the dust of the earth. MAN THE SPIRIT WAS PERFECT AND WILL REMAIN THE SAME FOR EVER. THE BODY HERE ON EARTH WAS NOT PERFECT IT WAS LIMITING AND CORRUPTIBLE FROM THE BEGINNING. Man needed to choose from the trees in the garden for either perfection of condemnation.

Man was created righteous and that was the 1st step on the way to perfection. he must then follow Gods instruction by HIS CHOICE (NEVER COMPELLED) to become PERFECT. IF MAN HAD EATEN FROM THE TREE OF LIFE HIS BODY WILL PROBABLY HAVE CHANGED JUST LIKE WE WILL GET WHEN WE ARE TRANSLATED INTO HIS KINGDOM.

Romans 8:20-22 King James Version (KJV)
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

we were MADE SUBJECT TO VANITY.
1 Corinthians 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

No, it was made totally functional--perfect. God does not make anything less than that. It was made to be immortal, had they not sinned and lost access to the tree, they would have remained so. It became subject to corruption---death--at the fall. Everything you are stating only comes after the fall.

Gen_3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

 

[The Barbarian]

Did you read what BobRyan said?

I prefer to take what God said. You should, too.

He said NOT TRUE He said "in the day" was not a calendar day.

None of the "days" in the creation story were calendar days. As Christians have always known, they are symbolic of different aspects of creation. This is why the two different chapters are not contradictory; they aren't about literal days.


Is his interpretation wrong?

IN THE DAY simply means AT THAT TIME OR DURING THAT TIME. It is a figure of speech not a calendar day.

Just like the days in chapter 1. It's just that you approve of it in chapter 2, but not in chapter 1.

 

[ChristaLife]

No, it was made totally functional--perfect. God does not make anything less than that. It was made to be immortal, had they not sinned and lost access to the tree, they would have remained so. It became subject to corruption---death--at the fall. Everything you are stating only comes after the fall.

Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

If you are going to create something like HUMAN with absolute freedom and great intelligence and abilities and if you are going to give them the ability to choose then you also have to make a great deal of choices available.including evil.
God then sets about teaching us to choose good and foretells us the consequences of our choices.

Romans 2:6-8 King James Version (KJV)
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

WHY WOULD YOU EXPECT PERFECTION IN THAT STATE.
IT IS ONLY THOSE THAT ATTAIN TO ETERNAL LIFE THAT WILL BE MADE PERFECT.

REMEMBER IN THE GARDEN THERE WERE TWO TREES , TREE OF LIFE AND THE TREE OF EVIL.
EATING OF THE TREE LIFE LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE AND PERFECTION
EATING OF THE TREE OF EVIL LEADS TO DEATH (lest ye die) DEATH HERE MEANS PERMANENT SEPARATION FROM GOD IN THE LAKE OF FIRE.

As far as the physical death is concern IF GOD tarries we will all die. We are flesh and blood and God said flesh and blood cannot inherit the kinGdom of God. he also said DUST YOU ARE TO DUST YOU WILL RETURN.

 

[ChristaLife]

None of the "days" in the creation story were calendar days. As Christians have always known, they are symbolic of different aspects of creation. This is why the two different chapters are not contradictory; they aren't about literal days.

I can only say you have chosen to close your mind to the truth. I will only advise to reread the bible WITHOUT ANY PRECONCEPTION IN YOUR MIND AND PRAY TO GOD TO OPEN YOUR EYES AND UNDERSTANDING THEN YOU WILL SEE CLEARLY WHAT THE WORD OF GOD IS SAYING.

 

[Petros2015]

Relativity and the expansion of the universe will get you there. Was it 6 days or 16 billion years? It's all relative to the observer who was telling the story.

 

[BobRyan]

That is because a sun was already there.

The Bible says the Sun was created on day 4. "The sun was already there" is an interesting "insert" into the text however.

When the earth was founded, YOM meant something else - especially in the context of light, darkness, and void(s) before the heavens were filled.

Not according to Exodus 20:11 pointing right back to Genesis 1-2 for the "yom" definition showing that it was the same as in the 7 day week at Sinai.

Bible details

Ok. I am not arguing, but I don't believe any of what you said. Cheers.

And of course everyone has free will. You are most certainly welcomed to your preferences on this subject ... no question about that.

But not everyone will look at God's references to the week of Genesis 1-2 in Exodus 20:11 and dismiss the details that we find in vs 11 or the fact that vs 8-11 make it a literal week.


Exodus 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

vs 11 is a direct reference to Genesis 2:1-3 ... same author, same subject, same event.

Genesis 2:1-3
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

 

[ChristaLife]

But not everyone will look at God's references to the week of Genesis 1-2 in Exodus 20:11 and dismiss the details that we find in vs 11 or the fact that vs 8-11 make it a literal week.

Amen Thank you brother

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
verse 1 and 2 are before day 1.

Day 1 happens in vs 3-vs5.

Verses 1-5 are DAY 1

ok I stand corrected.

Vs 1 is a summary of God's work as Creator of all things...

Vs 2-5 is day one of the specific creation events for our earth, life on Earth, and our solar system.

1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

 

[BobRyan]

Exodus 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

vs 11 is a direct reference to Genesis 2:1-3 ... same author, same subject, same event.

Genesis 2:1-3
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

And it appears that your argument is to insert a time frame that is not in the passage, in either Gen. 1 or Gen. 2? In Gen. 2:4 if creation was immediate why had no shrub of the field or plant appeared?

Time frame... This one?

Exodus 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,... 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Genesis 1:2-2:4 is one account

You are looking at the second account starting with Gen 2:4 where details are added such as the fact that there was no harvesting of crops in the field in those days... neither was there rain.

 

[ChristaLife]

None of the "days" in the creation story were calendar days. As Christians have always known, they are symbolic of different aspects of creation. This is why the two different chapters are not contradictory; they aren't about literal days.

Exodus 20:8-11 King James Version (KJV)
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

CALENDAR DAYS . literal days/week

 

[ChristaLife]

BobRyan said: ↑
verse 1 and 2 are before day 1.

Day 1 happens in vs 3-vs5.



ok I stand corrected.

Vs 1 is a summary of God's work as Creator of all things...

Vs 2-5 is day one of the specific creation events for our earth, life on Earth, and our solar system.

1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

AMEN GLORY TO GOD. GOD BLESS YOU AND ALL OF US IN JESUS NAME. AMEN

 

[ChristaLife]

ok I stand corrected.

Vs 1 is a summary of God's work as Creator of all things...

Vs 2-5 is day one of the specific creation events for our earth, life on Earth, and our solar system.

1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

AMEN GLORY TO GOD. GOD BLESS YOU AND ALL OF US IN JESUS NAME. AMEN

 

[The Barbarian]

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

So your argument is that if scripture cites a parable, that makes it literal history? Can you explain how that works?

CALENDAR DAYS . literal days/week

But as you learned, the "days" in chapter 1, and the "day" in chapter 2, are not calendar days.

 

[Jamsie]

vs 11 is a direct reference to Genesis 2:1-3 ... same author, same subject, same event.
Time frame... This one?
You are looking at the second account starting with Gen 2:4 where details are added such as the fact that there was no harvesting of crops in the field in those days... neither was there rain.

Yes, God had completed commanding the creation processes but still there is no time frame other than 6 days with resting on the seventh. The numerical corresponding to a day has to do with God's command/fiat, the structure strongly suggests a clear overview but still no time reference...could not it have been written the "next day". The days clearly related to God's spoken creative act(s) with no time element other than associated with the command.

As has been noted elsewhere, “And God said, ...” clearly this establishes that all of creation was actualized by God’s spoken command or fiat. Each day begins with those very words, so that God’s command was the source of all creation, the sole and only operative agent. (Psalm 33:6 – Heb. 11:3 – 2 Peter 3:5) One will also note that His commands were all sufficient, certainly requiring no further action on God’s part.

Gen. 1:3 “And God said, Let there be light, and there was light.” It would be difficult not to notice that plainly the command is immediately fulfilled.

Yet all verses begin with the very same structure “And God said, ...” however the command is not directed to immediate completion but through agency – mediate creation. God commands separation, God commands the land and the water to bring forth/produce living vegetation, fish, whales, birds, livestock, etc. No where does it say “And God said, Let there be vegetation, seed bearing trees, etc. ...” nowhere does it say “And God said, Let there be living creatures...” obviously this is avoided but rather the command/fiat is to an intermediary source. This in no way negates His creative power but rather suggests how he choose to create.

“And God said, let the land produce...”. Understanding that the command is the sole operative then one can’t help but notice that the command/fiat is directed not to plants, shrubs, etc. but to the land. Gen. 1:11 speaks to the mediate creation of vegetation. The passage avoids “Let there be plants, shrubs, grasses, etc. ...” but again if the command itself is the sole operative then it is quite plain what God is commanding...the land.

Genesis 2:4 does not suggest anything to do with "harvest" rather the word used is "tsamach" which means to grow or spring forth.

 

[Kaon]

The Bible says the Sun was created on day 4. "The sun was already there" is an interesting "insert" into the text however.

You said this:

...Exodus 20:8-11 all the Hebrews gathered there knew it was "a literal solar day"​

Context is everything in Hebrew.
​

to which I replied:

That is because a sun was already there. When the earth was founded, YOM meant something else - especially in the context of light, darkness, and void(s) before the heavens were filled. I alluded to this in my first post.
​

Do you understand what I am saying? You said all the Hebrews knew there that it was a literal day. That is because they are calibrating time to objects that were made before them and given to them for time - the SUN.

But, the real context was specifically about the light that was separated before a sun, stars and moon existed, and what the definition of a day was the THREE days before the sun was created.

Of course a literal day (sunset to sunset) would be taken as a literal day because the Hebrews were given the sun, moon and stars for signs and seasons by the Most High Himself. What was the "or", or "light" that was separated before the sun? Read the Hebrew in that context; this is why I said,

I alluded to this in my first post​

Not according to Exodus 20:11 pointing right back to Genesis 1-2 for the "yom" definition showing that it was the same as in the 7 day week at Sinai.

Bible details

That is because the sun is already there, and the Most High God has already told the Hebrews to use the sun and moon as a sign and for seasons. But, the "or" before the sun was created was separated from "choshek" on the first "yom;" what was that light (or) if there was no sun?

That is when you use the definition of "yom" when there no "sunset," or no "hours." You don't interpolate human logic into something that has a very clear answer. God is not the author of confusion.

And of course everyone has free will. You are most certainly welcomed to your preferences on this subject ... no question about that.

But not everyone will look at God's references to the week of Genesis 1-2 in Exodus 20:11 and dismiss the details that we find in vs 11 or the fact that vs 8-11 make it a literal week.

I would have to completely dissect the disconnect, and determine if there is a connection before I even begin to debate with you, let alone discuss. From the way I had to completely repeat what I said before, I think there must be some disconnect. You don't seem to see the point I am making: the distinction between the definition of a day outside of the existence of a sun (i.e. not 24 hours), and the designation of a 24 hour day after humans were told to the sun as such.

I honestly hope you find what you are looking for.

 

[ChristaLife]

But as you learned, the "days" in chapter 1, and the "day" in chapter 2, are not calendar days.

The days in the bible are calendar days months and years.
What we said was not calendar day was the expression "in the day" which is a figure of speech meaning AT THE TIME OR DURING THAT TIME.

 

[ChristaLife]

So your argument is that if scripture cites a parable, that makes it literal history? Can you explain how that works?

CREATION WAS NOT A PARABLE BUT AN ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAPPENED AS IT HAPPENED. I think you get bugged down trying to compare Man and God.
Guess you do do well trying to give God some glory by saying his ways are far higher than the ways of men and as such his one day will be very many days or even years for men.

THE BIBLE DO EXPRESS SOMETHING LIKE THAT
2 Peter 3:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

In this case though . IT ALL ABOUT MAN. GOD WAS CREATING SOMETHING FOR MAN. IT WAS NOT CREATED AT THE HIGH STANDARD OF GOD BUT AT A STANDARD GOOD ENOUGH FOR MAN TO FULLY EXERCISE ALL THE (LIMITED) ABILITIES GOD ENDOWED HIM WITH. THE WHOLE WORLD AS BIG IT IS TO US IS SMALLER THAN A DOT BEFORE GOD. IT IS A COCOON. MAN CANNOT EVEN FULLY EXPLORE IT LET ALONE GET BEYOND IT.

God was creating time for man and a pattern of living for man. working days and rest days . he created us and he knows our body needs regular rest hence day and night. if you try to miss your night rest it will soon tell on you.
Genesis said 2 IN THE BEGINNING GOD . THAT MEAN GOD WAS BEFORE TIME BEGAN.
CREATION WAS NOT JUST ABOUT CREATING HEAVEN AND EARTH AND ALL THERE IS BUT ALSO TIME.

THE TIME IS AS WE HAVE IT TODAY BECAUSE THAT WAS WHAT GOD WAS CREATING. THE DAYS ARE EXACTLY LIKE IT IS NOW THE TIME JUST AS IT STILL IS THE YEARS JUST AS IT STILL IS.
THE TIMELESS THINGS OF GOD'S CREATION HAS NOT BEEN REVEALED TO US BUT WHAT IS REVEALED IS FOR US AND IT IS TIMED. THEY WILL ALL PASS AWAY AT THE FULLNESS OF TIME.

Deuteronomy 29:29
The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

 

[BobRyan]

So your argument is that if scripture cites a parable, that makes it literal history?

Exodus 20:8-11 cites no parable.

Is your argument that if you don't agree with something in the Bible - it must "be a parable"??

 

[BobRyan]

But as you learned, the "days" in chapter 1, and the "day" in chapter 2, are not calendar days.

As for Genesis 1:2-2:4 your statement is Not true according To God Himself speaking and writing in Exodus 20:8-11

 

[BobRyan]

Exodus 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

vs 11 is a direct reference to Genesis 2:1-3 ... same author, same subject, same event.

Genesis 2:1-3
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

You said this:

...Exodus 20:8-11 all the Hebrews gathered there knew it was "a literal solar day"​

Context is everything in Hebrew.
​

True.. I did say that.

And I also pointed out that in Exodus 16 they were given the "6 days of manna and nada on the 7th day Sabbath" exercise to the point that there was no confusion at all on that detail by the time they get to God speaking out loud in Exodus 20.

That is because a sun was already there. When the earth was founded, YOM meant something else

Which is of course - interesting speculation. But Moses is writing to the same folks of Exodus 20 -- in Genesis 1-2. All one author, all the same audience and Exodus 20:11 DOES go back to the very detail you claim is untrue - to make the case for a literal 7 day week in Genesis as being exactly what they have in Exodus 20.

Irrefutable.


​

Do you understand what I am saying? You said all the Hebrews knew there that it was a literal day. That is because they are calibrating time to objects that were made before them and given to them for time - the SUN.

And it is because in Exodus 20:8-11 God is telling them it is the same unit of time that they have staring them in the face.

details .. particularly that one ... matter.

But, the real context was specifically about the light that was separated before a sun, stars and moon existed, and what the definition of a day was the THREE days before the sun was created.

Evening and morning "the first day" only require two things.

1. A rotating planet (and you "appear" to argue that planet rotated at a different rate then... which is a candidate for nonsense).

2. A light source on only one side of the planet.

God's statement in Ex 20:11 is essentially that the planet's rotation at the time of Exodus 20 -- is pretty much what it was in Genesis 1.

Of course a literal day (sunset to sunset) would be taken as a literal day

A literal day is one rotation of the planet.

Genesis 1 does not say "sunset to sunset" but rather "evening and morning" -- and thus the "source" of the light does not have to be the sun in the first 3 days.

What was the "or", or "light" that was separated before the sun?

It does not matter because to get to "one day" all you need is a rotating planet and a light source on one side of Earth

That is when you use the definition of "yom" when there no "sunset," or no "hours."

Planets rotate.

Even rogue planets out in deep space are expected to conserve angular momentum. Galaxies also rotate.

You don't interpolate human logic into something that has a very clear answer. God is not the author of confusion.

God told them in Exodus 8:8-11 that the unit of time was the same -- and it is no surprise that the Earth's rotation had not changed in that 3000 year period of time.

You don't seem to see the point I am making: the distinction between the definition of a day outside of the existence of a sun (i.e. not 24 hours), and the designation of a 24 hour day after humans were told to the sun

That is not the minimum conditions needed to get a 24 hour day.. .the way we get it is one rotation of the planet and all we need to "watch it" is a light source on one side of the Earth.


Could not be any more obvious -- as I think you may agree.

What is more God Himself is telling them in their own language that the units of time were the same in Exodus 20:8-11.

Impossible to miss.