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How can Christians better understand what a non-theist believes?

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Munising

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I was asked a series of questions earlier, regarding my conversion from atheism. Below are my answers and my conclusion:

When you say "turn to God" do you believe that a god exists?
It may be rude to answer "obviously" but, obviously.
Why say "turn to God" when it would be less misleading to say "I came to believe that God exists"?

Please explain what you personally experienced when "He granted" you faith. How would you know it was God who granted you faith?
I went from a state of unbelief to a state of belief in an instant. I'm not sure in whose interests it would be for some external third party to grant me a faith in God, and there was definitely no self-interest at work as I was perfectly happy as a non-believer, just as you are. Although, to be fair, I did hang around Christian forums just as you do, possibly waiting for that incontrovertible evidence which never came.
Precisely what happened (or what did you observe/experience) that caused you to go from unbelief to belief?

When you say "called" do you mean to believe a god exists?
No, not asked to believe; given the ability to believe.
Did you not have the ability to believe when you were an atheist? I am an atheist and I have the ability and capacity to believe a god exists. What's missing are demonstrations of omniscience and omnipotence that are undeniable the works of a supreme being.

An atheist doesn't come to believe a god exists through his heart. He does it through his head - through evidence which when presented is compelling enough to warrant a belief that a god exists.
Wrong. No man will ever reach the conclusion that God exists and come to love him through intellectual strivings alone. Some may come to the conclusion that A "god" exists when comparing the two scenarios regarding the formation of the universe - that nothing times nothing equals everything, or that all was created. However, this isn't belief in a specifically Christian God.
Given the god which Christians have posited - one that can do anything and knows everything - myself and other atheists would need to see undeniable and objectively measurable acts of a god's omniscience and omnipotence to believe that such a god exists.

When you say "turn to God" do you mean make the choice to choose to believe that a god exists?
No, I don't mean making a choice. As an atheist I felt unable to choose God, no matter how hard I might have tried. That's where you are now. I mean I instantly believed in something which before I had been unable to believe in. No choice involved.
What would have happened if when you were an atheist, you chose to believe that a god existed?

And what evidence is this?
Any thing at all. You look at the night sky and see the sky; I look and I see God's work. You look at an ant and see an ant; I see as miracle of engineering and the work of God. You see DNA and thing "that's a pretty impressive result from a series of happy accidents", where I see a plan.
If we both look at the sky and see the same thing, then why do you feel compelled to call it something other than what I call it? What real thing in this world is it you're calling "God"? The sky? Ants? All things in nature?

Atheists don't have presuppositions. They merely look at the evidence which is presented to them and come to a responsible and honest conclusion if the evidence warrants a belief that a god exists.
No atheist is entirely neutral. If God turned up on a Harley with a host of angels your immediate first thought would not be "Now I believe". It would more likely be your last thought following a series of analytical judgements, the first thought being "It can't be". Presupposition.
If the god on the Harley demonstrated through acts of omniscience and omnipotence that he was a supreme being, then I would believe.

Small creatures are evidence of small creatures. The magnificent cosmos is evidence of the magnificent cosmos. Neither are evidence that a god exists.
They are all evidence to a believer. They are not proof however. So many people who claim to be intelligent debaters here don't know the difference between evidence and proof. Evidence is that which leads to a likely conclusion based upon presuppositions. You - "This hip bone is evidence of a transitional being between two known evolutionary states of existence"; me - "This hip bone is from a different animal". See what I mean? My conclusion is God, yours is "I dunno, but it can't be God".
If the evidence you require is different from the evidence I require, then this thread is the type of place for you to ask why I have a different standard of evidence.

An ant is an ant regardless if humans believe a god exists.
True. I'm talking about the value we each might assign to that ant and our understanding of how it came to be. You may see it as the pinnacle of ant-based evolution. The ant as we know it has been around for millions of years. I might see it as a wonderful example of God's hand at work.
When you say "God's hand at work", what real thing in this universe are you calling "God's hand at work"? It must be something, as when you and I see the ant, we both see the same thing. You just call it something different from what I call it.

Interesting that Christians are so certain about things like the cosmos, biology, the history of the universe, etc., yet scientists aren't sure about these things. And it's very ironic that these "know-it-all" Christians are telling atheists they must "humble" themselves in front of the lord. Atheists already admit they don't know. The Christians who claim to know this much are the pinnacle of human arrogance.
I think the pinnacle of human arrogance lies in those who say "We don't know the answer, but yours must be wrong".
That response has, "I'm hurt because you called me arrogant" written all over it. But most likely, you are wrong. I say that you don't have sufficient basis for holding the belief which you hold.

And I wouldn't dream of telling an atheist to humble himself in front of the Lord; if God wants you he'll come and get you just as he did me.
I'll be waiting. Please send him my way. If he's real, he'll show up.
 
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Munising

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If I assert that Bigfoot doesn't exist, then I am obliged to offer a rationale for that assertion.
And an acceptable rationale is that others have asserted that Bigfoot does exist, but you don't find their evidence compelling.

I understand that it is comforting for you to think that Christians are secretly just as unpersuaded of their belief in God as you appear to be, but this isn't so in my case.
Then most likely you have been brainwashed. Imagine if you were a brainwashed terrorist for Al Queada (sp?). You wouldn't even know it. So perhaps you don't even know you have been brainwashed to believe a supreme being exists.

Perhaps the difference between me and people like you is that I am more impervious to being brainwashed than you are. And I have a better BS detector than you do.

If anyone is being evasive, it is you. More than evasive, you have outright ignored what is being said to you. You don't, as a result, seem like you are trying to get at the truth, but rather that you have already found it and think Christians ought to acknowledge that the "truth" you've found defeats their belief in God.
While I can't know with 100% certainty that a logically possible god doesn't exist, if you observed precisely what I observed and were honest and responsible with yourself, then you would not believe a god exists.

Upon what basis do you believe that a supreme being exists?
The existence of the universe. "Ex nihilo, nihilo fit."
The extreme fine-tuning of the universe for life.
The existence of an innate moral sense among humans.
The resurrection of Christ.
The existence of information (on a genetic level, first of all).
My daily experience of God.
And so on.
None of those are legitimate reasons to believe a supreme being exists.

Then you ought to look more closely at the evidence and at why you don't find it compelling while so many others do. The problem isn't, I think, with the evidence.
Let's evaluate your evidence:

The existence of the universe. "Ex nihilo, nihilo fit."
The existence of the universe is evidence of the universe. It's not evidence that a god exists.

The extreme fine-tuning of the universe for life.
Three flaws in that argument:
1) All the non-fine tuned life forms die off
2) The universe isn't entirely fine tuned for life
3) What god so finely tuned your god?

The existence of an innate moral sense among humans.
There could have been a breed of humans without good moral sense. They died off because they were killing each other, while we lived.

The resurrection of Christ.
There is no evidence that the resurrection of Christ ever occurred.

The existence of information (on a genetic level, first of all).
The existence of information is evidence of information, not evidence of a supreme being.

My daily experience of God.
What real thing in this universe are you calling "God"?

LOL! You see what you want see, I guess.

Why are you moving the goalposts?
[/quote]
I asked a very fair question, yet you continue to be evasive. What motivation would you have for being evasive other than by answering the question, you would have to confront that you have serious doubts about the validity of your god. So once again: What if I were to posit that these unicorns are undetectable and never leave any physical trace of their existence? How would you go about disproving them?

Remember, avoidance of a simple question is a way of showing your hand. I doubt you've ever played poker.

I wouldn't accuse you of being evasive if you weren't coming across as evasive. Try to be a little introspective and you'll see that you're being evasive.
Perhaps a bit lazy, but not evasive.
And too lazy to realize you're in denial about being evasive. If you can't see that you're being evasive, then it's very likely this same characteristic has you deluded into believing a god is real.

Um, I would suggest you not urge others to introspection when you appear to avoid it so much yourself. Did you carefully consider the explanation I gave you via the link?
Post the link again and I'll take a look.
 
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steve_bakr

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Why say "turn to God" when it would be less misleading to say "I came to believe that God exists"?

Precisely what happened (or what did you observe/experience) that caused you to go from unbelief to belief?

Did you not have the ability to believe when you were an atheist? I am an atheist and I have the ability and capacity to believe a god exists. What's missing are demonstrations of omniscience and omnipotence that are undeniable the works of a supreme being.

Given the god which Christians have posited - one that can do anything and knows everything - myself and other atheists would need to see undeniable and objectively measurable acts of a god's omniscience and omnipotence to believe that such a god exists.

What would have happened if when you were an atheist, you chose to believe that a god existed?

If we both look at the sky and see the same thing, then why do you feel compelled to call it something other than what I call it? What real thing in this world is it you're calling "God"? The sky? Ants? All things in nature?

If the god on the Harley demonstrated through acts of omniscience and omnipotence that he was a supreme being, then I would believe.

If the evidence you require is different from the evidence I require, then this thread is the type of place for you to ask why I have a different standard of evidence.

When you say "God's hand at work", what real thing in this universe are you calling "God's hand at work"? It must be something, as when you and I see the ant, we both see the same thing. You just call it something different from what I call it.

That response has, "I'm hurt because you called me arrogant" written all over it. But most likely, you are wrong. I say that you don't have sufficient basis for holding the belief which you hold.

I'll be waiting. Please send him my way. If he's real, he'll show up.

God is wholly other than the world. He is not an object among other objects, or another element in a larger household of realities. God is transcendent. We know him through our transcendental experience of an infinite horizon which transcends our encounters with finite existents. The categorical world of people and things is the medium through which we understand God.
 
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Munising

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God is wholly other than the world. He is not an object among other objects, or another element in a larger household of realities. God is transcendent. We know him through our transcendental experience of an infinite horizon which transcends our encounters with finite existents. The categorical world of people and things is the medium through which we understand God.
Just how would you know all this about God?
 
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steve_bakr

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Just how would you know all this about God?

First, through personal experience. Then, studying revealed scripture and theology which objectifies and confirms what I know. Much of how I explain it now has been objectified in Karl Rahner's work.

At any rate, we are not going to get at the truth of God by treating him as something which is a part of our world. That would place him alongside the world and therefore he would not be God.
 
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crimsonleaf

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Why say "turn to God" when it would be less misleading to say "I came to believe that God exists"?
Believing God exists and turning to Him are two different things. One is encompassed by the other.

Precisely what happened (or what did you observe/experience) that caused you to go from unbelief to belief?
I was driving down the M4 motorway from London to Bristol. I was listening to a radio programme in a half-hearted way and for no apparent reason affirmed a belief in God that had previously eluded me. The radio programme was about politics and nothing to do with my thoughts. We believe that God does the choosing, but I don't want to start an inter-denominational debate on that here.
Did you not have the ability to believe when you were an atheist? I am an atheist and I have the ability and capacity to believe a god exists. What's missing are demonstrations of omniscience and omnipotence that are undeniable the works of a supreme being.
Unsaved or unconverted man does have the ability to believe, but not the will. You can believe, but demand evidence that suits your personal criteria, therefore you wilfully reject the idea and wilfully reject God. You have confirmed that you can, but won't believe.
Given the god which Christians have posited - one that can do anything and knows everything - myself and other atheists would need to see undeniable and objectively measurable acts of a god's omniscience and omnipotence to believe that such a god exists.
Remember I was an atheist and I didn't get what you demand in order to believe. This isn't because I have a lower credibility threshold than you, it's because God, through the Holy Spirit, changed me in such a way that I am enabled to believe in the fullest sense. I understand that for you it's difficult to understand, but if it happens to you you'll be as pleased about it as I am.
What would have happened if when you were an atheist, you chose to believe that a god existed?
Then I would have ceased to be an atheist. (?)
If we both look at the sky and see the same thing, then why do you feel compelled to call it something other than what I call it? What real thing in this world is it you're calling "God"? The sky? Ants? All things in nature?
Not what I said at all. Of course I call the sky the sky. I don't call it God. Read what I said again.
If the god on the Harley demonstrated through acts of omniscience and omnipotence that he was a supreme being, then I would believe.
But your presuppositional first response would be "It can't be", not "Here's God".
If the evidence you require is different from the evidence I require, then this thread is the type of place for you to ask why I have a different standard of evidence.
No, the same evidence in each case. I'm discussing how each of us will use our presuppositions to support our view of the evidence.
When you say "God's hand at work", what real thing in this universe are you calling "God's hand at work"? It must be something, as when you and I see the ant, we both see the same thing. You just call it something different from what I call it.
I don't call an ant anything different from you. Read what I said again. Steve Bakr has summed it up pretty well.
That response has, "I'm hurt because you called me arrogant" written all over it. But most likely, you are wrong. I say that you don't have sufficient basis for holding the belief which you hold.
I'm not hurt; not even remotely. I sincerely believe that for anyone to say "we don't know what is right but you must be wrong" is an arrogant position to take. That would be true in any sphere.
I'll be waiting. Please send him my way. If he's real, he'll show up.
Not necessarily. There are many who never get the call. Maybe you're one of them. God certainly doesn't dance to my tune.

What you've shown here is confirmation of what I believe. That man naturally turns away and rejects God, demanding evidence of His existence beyond that which He has already given. You've confirmed you have the ability to believe but not the desire. In fact, you're a test case for Reformed Theology, so thank you.
 
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aiki

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If I assert that Bigfoot doesn't exist, then I am obliged to offer a rationale for that assertion.

And an acceptable rationale is that others have asserted that Bigfoot does exist, but you don't find their evidence compelling.
A rationale does not consist of simply saying you didn't find the evidence compelling. This sort of statement is on par with saying you didn't find a movie entertaining, or that the novel you just read didn't seem very realistic to you. It doesn't really make any difference to the validity or soundness of the evidence what your attitude towards it might be. What matters is whether or not the evidence is rational, reasonable and logically sound. Evidence can be all these things and at the same time seem "uncompelling." It just depends on your attitude toward the evidence.

Then most likely you have been brainwashed. Imagine if you were a brainwashed terrorist for Al Queada (sp?). You wouldn't even know it. So perhaps you don't even know you have been brainwashed to believe a supreme being exists.

Perhaps the difference between me and people like you is that I am more impervious to being brainwashed than you are. And I have a better BS detector than you do.
Again, telling yourself these things likely makes you feel better about your views, but they just ain't so.

What makes you think the "brainwashing of Al Qaeda" is similar to something I've endured in order to believe God exists?

If you're the one who's brainwashed, then, by your reasoning, you wouldn't be able to tell, would you? Perhaps your "BS detector" is just a part of your brainwashing. ;)

While I can't know with 100% certainty that a logically possible god doesn't exist, if you observed precisely what I observed and were honest and responsible with yourself, then you would not believe a god exists.
Goodness! This assumes a great deal! But, then, you seem to make a lot of unfounded assumptions...

The existence of the universe. "Ex nihilo, nihilo fit."

The existence of the universe is evidence of the universe. It's not evidence that a god exists.
LOL! Really? Is the existence of a car only evidence of the car's existence? No thinking person would limit the import of the car's existence to this one conclusion. The existence of the car speaks to a car manufacturer, which is painfully obvious. In the same way, the universe speaks to a "Universe Manufacturer" (aka God). Are you really thinking through what you're saying?

The extreme fine-tuning of the universe for life.

Three flaws in that argument:
1) All the non-fine tuned life forms die off
2) The universe isn't entirely fine tuned for life
3) What god so finely tuned your god?
Oh, dear...

1.) What difference does this make to the fact that the universal constants of the universe are fine-tuned to an incredible degree and that such exiquisitely narrow fine-tuning makes its occurence by chance virtually impossible?

2.) What difference does it make to the argument from Fine Tuning that there are places in the universe where life cannot exist?

3.) You reveal a profound conceptual confusion by asking this question. Your question is on par with asking how many right angles there are in a circle, or how many married bachelors there are in New York. By definition, circles don't have right angles, bachelors aren't married, and God is neither created nor fine-tuned by anything or anyone. If He were, He would no longer meet the definition of "God." When you talk about God being fine-tuned, you are no longer talking about the Christian concept of God.

The existence of an innate moral sense among humans.

There could have been a breed of humans without good moral sense. They died off because they were killing each other, while we lived.
"There could have been"? That's your response? There "could have been" anything one can imagine! But what "could have been" isn't therefore what was! "Just-so" stories do not constitute an argument.

The resurrection of Christ.

There is no evidence that the resurrection of Christ ever occurred.
Yes, there is. See the Gospels.

The existence of information (on a genetic level, first of all).

The existence of information is evidence of information, not evidence of a supreme being.
You would make a very poor detective! Do you know what the word "inference" means? Since information is not spontaneously self-generating - especially the highly complex information contained in our genes - and requires a Mind from which to arise, the presence of information in our genes implies a great deal more than its own existence.

My daily experience of God.

What real thing in this universe are you calling "God"?
What do you mean by "real thing"? Do you mean a real thing like integrity, or bravery, or virtue, or a motive? Or do you only mean tangible things like rocks, and trees, and water?

I asked a very fair question, yet you continue to be evasive. What motivation would you have for being evasive other than by answering the question, you would have to confront that you have serious doubts about the validity of your god.
I explained why I am not willing to answer this question. You are guilty of what is known in philosophy as "moving the goalposts." Rather than acknowledging that your challenge was successfully answered, you have simply altered the challenge. This is intellectually dishonest.

So once again: What if I were to posit that these unicorns are undetectable and never leave any physical trace of their existence? How would you go about disproving them?
If the unicorns are undetectable, then you cannot detect them. On what basis, then, can you assert that they exist? You really aren't thinking this stuff through, are you?

Post the link again and I'll take a look.
Scroll back in the thread and find it. Really, though, it's pretty clear, I think, that the fact you haven't read it shows a significant intellectual dishonesty on your part. I don't believe that you really intend to understand the Christian perspective on God. If you did, you'd have followed the link when it was first offered. So, what are you really doing here? Well, from what you've written so far, you seem simply to want to convince yourself that your beliefs about God aren't out to lunch. But that you need to do this suggest a serious insecurity about what you believe.

Selah.
 
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Ronald

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If I have one struggle as a non-struggle as a non-Christian, it is how can I help Christians better understand why I don't believe a god exists and what it is I do believe. I feel as if Christians don't completely understand what an atheist is. It's not a hatred or rejection of a god; It's simply to not hold the belief that a god exists - nothing more, nothing less.
Most Christians do understand why you don't believe in God because we were there too. Unless you were brought up in a Christian home (I wasn't), you went your own way without God in the picture. My dad is an atheist, my mom believes in reincarnation and the universal energy force as her god (not a personal god) and my brother believes in himself and aliens from other planets. I studied evolution in college and had that mindset.
We understand that we were once blind and incapable of seeing or knowing God until He removed that spiritual veil, allowing us to see.
So, we know why you don't believe. We can't remove that veil no matter what we say. Faith comes by the word (reading & hearing it) and so you must sincerely seek God and put aside all the doubts.
Do you like baseball? Read Frank Pastore's book: Shattered. He was an ex-atheist/pro baseball player who tells his story of life changing series of events leading up to becoming a Christian. Btw, in his last radio broadcast, he had a detailed premonition of his death hours later, on record, a motorcycle accident in the carpool lane while a car crossed over into him and wiped him out --a few months ago.
How about a story written by an ex-atheist who was an award winning investigative reporter, Lee Strobel, for the Chicago Tribune, who interviewed top minds and influencial people in the world about why they don't believe or why they do in "A Case For Faith" and later wrote "A Case For Christ".

WE KNOW.
 
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JGG

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This thread explains a lot. The thread is titled: How can Christians better understand what a non-theist believes? And yet, there is no interest in discussing that. Instead it's accusations, and explaining to us what you need us to believe so we fit in your neat, comfy, stereotyped pigeonholes.
 
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aiki

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This thread explains a lot. The thread is titled: How can Christians better understand what a non-theist believes? And yet, there is no interest in discussing that. Instead it's accusations, and explaining to us what you need us to believe so we fit in your neat, comfy, stereotyped pigeonholes.

It appears to have escaped your notice that this is a "Struggles by Non-Christians" forum on a Christian website that is intended to offer support (of a Christian nature) to those who request it. It is not a "Discover Atheism" or a "Understand Atheism" forum. In light of this, it seems very odd to me that you would expect us to want to understand atheism. In fact, many of us understand it perfectly well and disagree with it strongly (which you should expect given that this is a Christian website and forum).

Selah.
 
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JGG

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It appears to have escaped your notice that this is a "Struggles by Non-Christians" forum on a Christian website that is intended to offer support (of a Christian nature) to those who request it. It is not a "Discover Atheism" or a "Understand Atheism" forum. In light of this, it seems very odd to me that you would expect us to want to understand atheism. In fact, many of us understand it perfectly well and disagree with it strongly (which you should expect given that this is a Christian website and forum).

Selah.

But you clearly don't. The thread asks to understand what a non-theist believes. I suspect the title was specially crafted to make a point. If you think atheism is something an atheist believes in then you don't understand it. Anything an atheist believes is from something other than atheism. Ultately thiugh it doesn't say understand atheism, it says understand atheists.

But you're right. Why would Christians seek to understand people different from themselves? What benefit what that be to you?
 
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FreeinChrist

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This thread will remain closed because it is considered to be off-topic for the Struggles by Non-Christians forum. This forum should not have threads or posts created in it discussing and/or debating apologetics about Christian faith.

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