How can anyone like Calvinism?

[ozso]

Calvinism is a theology I would have to force myself into believing in completely.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Because "election" itself is a process... called, chosen... faithful.

Mmmm...

Are you sure ???

Romans 9

when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think a core reason why folks struggle with it is because they think we have a right to free will.

Yet is not the demand that we have free will selfish in it's self ???

The reason why I don't have an issue with it is because my life was utterly broken, and He rescued and restored me.

My free will had been taken away.

How can I credit myself with anything ???

 

[TedT]

we have a right to free will.

Yet is not the demand that we have free will selfish in it's self ???

Strawman...Wherein is the RIGHT to a free will mentioned?

How can we be guilty of evil if we do not choose it by a free will? Yet we must suffer and die for another's choice??? Is it not the fault of the person in charge of the choices we make who forces us to sin and who therefore is the person who should be punished?

IF we have no free will how can we truly agree to HIS marriage proposal and respond to HIS love? We can only respond with HIS choices for us and we are Stepford wives if we have no free will, no choice.

No free will means no true love and no real marriage for us and the heavenly marriage is a lie.

 

[BBAS 64]

Strawman...Wherein is the RIGHT to a free will mentioned?

How can we be guilty of evil if we do not choose it by a free will? Yet we must suffer and die for another's choice??? Is it not the fault of the person in charge of the choices we make who forces us to sin and who therefore is the person who should be punished?

IF we have no free will how can we truly agree to HIS marriage proposal and respond to HIS love? We can only respond with HIS choices for us and we are Stepford wives if we have no free will, no choice.

No free will means no true love and no real marriage for us and the heavenly marriage is a lie.

Good Day, Ted

So let me see if I follow...

A 1st century Jewish Father goes and chooses a wife for his only son, and when he determines the time is right for the wedding presents his son with the wife he had chosen for him.

Calls the family for the wedding, and he oversees the details of the ceremony.

Because the bride had no free-will the wedding in your mind is a null and void?

On the basis of your assumed "free-will" being required?

I am sure you have a primary historical Jewish source for your assertion and conclusion....

In Him,

Bill

 

[def]

Good Day, Def

Why would you "think" that?
Have you ever heard of the Synod of Dort?
What from Calvin have you read that made you think such a thing?

In Him,

Bill

No, I have not heard of the Synod of Dort.
TULIP appears to me as a list of premises, and from these premises, a hypothesis is developed. The hypothesis rests on those premises. It reminds me of "proof by axioms."
On this forum alone, "L" and "P" are vigorously challenged. Given that mankind has always looked to worship God - sun, moon, etc - even "T" is doubtful.

 

[Ligurian]

Good thread.

But... the truly "chosen" are tested.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Matthew 24:4-5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.[5] For many shall come in My name, saying, I am (χριστος) anointed, and shall deceive many.KJV

Matthew 24:24-25 For false christs and false prophets shall arise and shall give great signs and miracles so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.[25] Behold I described to you beforehand.(ABP)

Because "election" itself is a process... called, chosen... faithful.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison that ye may be tested, and ye shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful unto death and I will give thee a crown of life. ...[13] I know thy works and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is. And thou holdest fast My name and hast not denied My faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was My faithful martyr who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Revelation 11:3-6 And [I will] give MY two witnesses and [they shall] prophesy [a] thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed [in] sackcloth. ...[7] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them and shall overcome them and kill them.

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called and chosen and faithful.

Mmmm...

Are you sure ???

Romans 9

when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Yes, I'm sure: I follow Matthew 10:5-7.

Matthew 13:19-23 When any one heareth the word of the Kingdom and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Called
[20] But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word and anon with joy receiveth it.[21] Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
(skandalon = stumbling-block, entrap: make to offend, apostacy)
[22] He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. (John 15:2)
Chosen
[23] But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Faithful
Revelation 2:8-11 ...poverty, (but thou art rich)... [10] Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer. Behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried, and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.[11] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches: He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 3:7-9 [10] Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the Earth.[11] Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.[12] Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out. And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of Heaven from My God: and I will write upon him My new name.

stulos = from stuo (to stiffen; properly akin to the base of 2476); a post ("style"), i.e. (figuratively) support:--pillar. ... 2476 = histemi = to stand:--abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up).

Revelation 11:3-12 [4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (Revelation 1:20)

Called and chosen and faithful

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings; and they that are with Him are called and chosen and faithful. (Revelation 14:1-5) (Revelation 7:4-8)

 

[TedT]

Because the bride had no free-will the wedding in your mind is a null and void?

Since when is the perfection of GOD defined by the foibles of sinful man?

Null and void? no.
Illegitimate? Certainly not a proper expression of the perfect heavenly marriage earthly marriage is supposed to be based upon.

I am sure you have a primary historical Jewish source for your assertion and conclusion....

No, I just know GOD and HIS ways of perfection.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Strawman...Wherein is the RIGHT to a free will mentioned?

Double straw man - who said it was?

How can we be guilty of evil if we do not choose it by a free will? Yet we must suffer and die for another's choice??? Is it not the fault of the person in charge of the choices we make who forces us to sin and who therefore is the person who should be punished?

Paul answered that question here...

Rom 9

who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

His Love towards His chosen is irresistable...

However we do have the choice to obey Him or not and this determines our eternal status rewards.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes, I'm sure: I follow Matthew 10:5-7.

Where in scripture does it say election is a process?

Jacob was chosen before he was born.

 

[BBAS 64]

Since when is the perfection of GOD defined by the foibles of sinful man?

Null and void? no.
Illegitimate? Certainly not a proper expression of the perfect heavenly marriage earthly marriage is supposed to be based upon.



No, I just know GOD and HIS ways of perfection.

Good Day, Ted

Well then there you have it, with in the context of the marriage as understood historically for the Jewish nation. The Father (exclusively) choosing the Bride for His son is not only proper, and perfect but valid.


Unless you know and can prove something other than what is historically clear about the details of the Jewish marriage as I have out lined you have missed the historically reality of the context of the metaphor used. You may know God and His ways, but have completely misunderstood application and historical context.

In Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

No, I have not heard of the Synod of Dort.
TULIP appears to me as a list of premises, and from these premises, a hypothesis is developed. The hypothesis rests on those premises. It reminds me of "proof by axioms."
On this forum alone, "L" and "P" are vigorously challenged. Given that mankind has always looked to worship God - sun, moon, etc - even "T" is doubtful.

Good Day, Def

So it is safe to say in fact that you have no idea (other than this forum) what you are talking about, as you have never done any research of primary sources around the issue(s).

Got it.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Ligurian]

Yes, I'm sure: I follow Matthew 10:5-7.

Matthew 13:19-23 When any one heareth the word of the Kingdom and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Called
[20] But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word and anon with joy receiveth it.[21] Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
(skandalon = stumbling-block, entrap: make to offend, apostacy)
[22] He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. (John 15:2)
Chosen
[23] But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Faithful
Revelation 2:8-11 ...poverty, (but thou art rich)... [10] Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer. Behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried, and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.[11] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches: He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 3:7-9 [10] Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the Earth.[11] Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.[12] Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out. And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of Heaven from My God: and I will write upon him My new name.

stulos = from stuo (to stiffen; properly akin to the base of 2476); a post ("style"), i.e. (figuratively) support:--pillar. ... 2476 = histemi = to stand:--abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up).

Revelation 11:3-12 [4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (Revelation 1:20)

Called and chosen and faithful

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings; and they that are with Him are called and chosen and faithful. (Revelation 14:1-5) (Revelation 7:4-8)

Where in scripture does it say election is a process?

Simple deduction... above, and right here:

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before his angels.

If a name needs to be blotted out, then it must have been written there, to begin with. I think that means the person was chosen... but now he's not.

Jacob was chosen before he was born.

It's actually not that cut-and-dried.
Because not all of Jacob's sons were good guys, were they?

Look at Judah... his first two sons were evil, so God killed them.
If Judah was a son of chosen-Jacob,
and two sons of Judah were killed by God...
then chosen does NOT mean faithful-and-saved.

Answers in Prophecy

Genesis 25:23 And the Lord said to her, There are two nations in thy womb, and two peoples shall be separated from thy belly, and one people shall excel the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.

Judges 13:4-5 And now be very cautious, and drink no wine nor strong drink, and eat no unclean thing;[5] for behold, thou art with child, and shalt bring forth a son; and there shall come no razor upon his head, for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb; and he shall begin to save Israel from the hand of the Phylistines.

Jeremiah 1:4-5 And the word of the Lord came to him, saying,[5] Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee, and before thou camest forth from the womb, I sanctified thee: I appointed thee a prophet to the nations.

Nature or Nurture?

Psalms 58:3 Sinners have gone astray from the womb: they go astray from the belly: they speak lies.

Psalms 71:6 On thee have I been stayed from the womb: from the belly of my mother Thou art my protector: of Thee is my praise continually.

Isaiah 44:1 But now hear, Jacob My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen. 2 Thus saith the Lord God that made thee, and He that formed thee from the womb: Thou shalt yet be helped: fear not, My servant Jacob, and beloved Israel, whom I have chosen.

Flip-side of the Chosen Coin

Isaiah 48:8 Thou hast neither known, nor understood, neither from the beginning have I opened thine ears: for I knew that thou wouldest surely deal treacherously, and wouldest be called a transgressor even from the womb.

_____________________________
I think it all comes down to free will.

If man isn't free to make his own decisions, then
whatever happens to him must be God's fault.
[If a chosen man sins, then that's God's fault, too
... if not for the process of testing, (shown above),
plus the Gospel of the Kingdom's ongoing built-in
repentance-and-forgiveness, Matthew 5, Matthew 6.]

Personally, I'd rather not think anything bad about God.
Instead, I deal with life on life's terms, and take responsibility for my own actions.

 

[def]

Good Day, Def

So it is safe to say in fact that you have no idea (other than this forum) what you are talking about, as you have never done any research of primary sources around the issue(s).

Got it.

In Him,

Bill

Please enlighten me, what are the primary sources of Calvin's research?

 

[public hermit]

How can anyone in their mind like the doctrine of Calvinism?

One time, thinking about the fact that Jesus actually died for every single person on earth almost made me burst into tears. Thinking about the fact that no-one would have to go to hell. But then Calvinism feels really depressing when it says that God chose some special people who are only allowed to be saved for some mysterious reason. Like being part of some special group of special people, and I absolutely hate that and it disgusts me. But thank God, it's not even true anyway according to the Bible.

I wonder how the Calvinist would feel if every person on the entire earth was a saved born-again Christian. Maybe he wouldn't feel so special about himself.

I embraced Calvinism (5 point) for years for a couple of reasons: 1) By the time I came to faith, sovereign grace was the only thing that could save me. I was so far gone, I needed a God whose love for me transcended my inabilities, and 2) It was logically satisfying, at the time.

I grew up in an Armininian/Holiness tradition where people claimed to be free from sin and near perfect. And yet I watched how they treated others, their arrogance, and just couldn't get on board. Everybody acted like they were saints but I saw behind the curtain, so to speak, because my father was their pastor. PKs know what is going on, usually. So, I was drawn to the Reformed emphasis on grace. However, I eventually became uncomfortable with the obvious - double predestination.

It's interesting because your complaint about Calvinists is the same one I had about Arminians. Oh well, we each have to work out our own salvation, but I definitely lean toward your last statement, in some sense. I still hold to divine sovereignty, I just reject any presumption toward arrogance and the human ability to thwart God's desire to save all. I don't know how it will all end, but I definitely think God is more than capable of finishing the job to everyone's satisfaction.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Jacob was chosen before he was born.

He was not chosen because he was 'good' in fact this point is emphasised.

If a name needs to be blotted out, then it must have been written there, to begin with. I think that means the person was chosen... but now he's not.

The name didn't need to be blotted out - that is the whole point.

God makes sure the elect are kept from falling.

The indwelling Holy Spirit keeps them from falling away as promised.

Jude 24,25 NKJV
24 Now to Him who is able to protect you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory, blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority before all time and now and forever. Amen.

 

[Clare73]

I embraced Calvinism (5 point) for years for a couple of reasons: 1) By the time I came to faith, sovereign grace was the only thing that could save me. I was so far gone, I needed a God whose love for me transcended my inabilities, and 2) It was logically satisfying, at the time.

I grew up in an Armininian/Holiness tradition where people claimed to be free from sin and near perfect. And yet I watched how they treated others, their arrogance, and just couldn't get on board. Everybody acted like they were saints but I saw behind the curtain, so to speak, because my father was their pastor. PKs know what is going on, usually. So, I was drawn to the Reformed emphasis on grace. However, I eventually became uncomfortable with the obvious - double predestination.

It's interesting because your complaint about Calvinists is the same one I had about Arminians. Oh well, we each have to work out our own salvation, but I definitely lean toward your last statement, in some sense. I still hold to divine sovereignty, I just reject any presumption toward arrogance and the human ability to thwart God's desire to save all.

I don't know how it will all end, but I definitely think
God is more than capable of finishing the job to everyone's satisfaction.

And that will be the glory of it all. . .i.e., that in Scripture which is not to your satisfaction now, will be to your satisfaction then, believe it not!

 

[public hermit]

And that will be the glory of it all. . .that in Scripture which is not to your satisfaction now, will be to your satisfaction then, believe it not!

Thanks, Clare.

 

[Fervent]

I embraced Calvinism (5 point) for years for a couple of reasons: 1) By the time I came to faith, sovereign grace was the only thing that could save me. I was so far gone, I needed a God whose love for me transcended my inabilities, and 2) It was logically satisfying, at the time.

I grew up in an Armininian/Holiness tradition where people claimed to be free from sin and near perfect. And yet I watched how they treated others, their arrogance, and just couldn't get on board. Everybody acted like they were saints but I saw behind the curtain, so to speak, because my father was their pastor. PKs know what is going on, usually. So, I was drawn to the Reformed emphasis on grace. However, I eventually became uncomfortable with the obvious - double predestination.

It's interesting because your complaint about Calvinists is the same one I had about Arminians. Oh well, we each have to work out our own salvation, but I definitely lean toward your last statement, in some sense. I still hold to divine sovereignty, I just reject any presumption toward arrogance and the human ability to thwart God's desire to save all. I don't know how it will all end, but I definitely think God is more than capable of finishing the job to everyone's satisfaction.

It's interesting to me hearing such an account. Calvinism nearly drove me from the faith, especially with the dogmatic arrogance it is often perpetuated with. Growing up I was always told Calvinists knew the Bible the best, and the constant recitation of proof texts from memory verses made it seem that was the case. But to me the Calvinist picture of God always appeared a moral monster, capriciously dooming folk to torture for his own pleasure. When I returned to faith I still thought Calvinists knew the Bible the best and so I tried to make myself accept the Calvinist doctrine, and it turned me into something I didn't like as I was cold hearted to the "unregenerate." This all changed when I dove deep into the OT and it caused me to re-think many of the verses I'd heard parrotted so often in support of Calvinism, beginning with the manner of atonement that Calvinist soteriology is built upon.

 

[public hermit]

It's interesting to me hearing such an account. Calvinism nearly drove me from the faith, especially with the dogmatic arrogance it is often perpetuated with. Growing up I was always told Calvinists knew the Bible the best, and the constant recitation of proof texts from memory verses made it seem that was the case. But to me the Calvinist picture of God always appeared a moral monster, capriciously dooming folk to torture for his own pleasure. When I returned to faith I still thought Calvinists knew the Bible the best and so I tried to make myself accept the Calvinist doctrine, and it turned me into something I didn't like as I was cold hearted to the "unregenerate." This all changed when I dove deep into the OT and it caused me to re-think many of the verses I'd heard parrotted so often in support of Calvinism, beginning with the manner of atonement that Calvinist soteriology is built upon.

I won't begrudge another their experience. I can see what you're saying, for sure. I didn't see it then, but Calvinism does harbor a certain kind of arrogance. I'm at a different place, altogether, but support you on your journey.