How can anyone like Calvinism?

Clare73 said:

You reject the writings of the apostle Paul,
who received his gospel from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12)?

Jesus told the apostles, "He who listens to you, listens to me; he who rejects you, rejects me."
(Luke 10:16)

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Do you keep the Commandments of Iesus?

___ Yes ___ No

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Clare73 said:

You reject the writings of the apostle Paul,
who received his gospel from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12)?

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You don't keep the Commandments of Iesus,
who received His Commandments from the Father
(Deuteronomy 18:18-19, John 12:48-50)?

Ligurian said:

That doesn't make it relative to me. I can't wrap my head around Paul's mysteries. Tried to for years, and it didn't take. So I don't read his mail, or his biography.

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You reject the writings of the apostle Paul,
who received his gospel from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12)?

Jesus told the apostles, "He who listens to you, listens to me; he who rejects you, rejects me."
(Luke 10:16)

Ligurian said:

You don't keep the Commandments of Iesus,
who received His Commandments from the Father
(Deuteronomy 18:18-19, John 12:48-50)?

Click to expand...

Clare73 said:

You reject the writings of the apostle Paul,
who received his gospel from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12)?

Click to expand...

Ligurian said:

That doesn't make it relative to me. I can't wrap my head around Paul's mysteries. Tried to for years, and it didn't take. So I don't read his mail, or his biography.

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Clare73 said:

.

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You reject the writings of the apostle Paul,
who received his gospel from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12)?

Jesus told the apostles, "He who listens to you, listens to me; he who rejects you, rejects me."
(Luke 10:16)

Ligurian said:

That doesn't make it relative to me. Can't wrap my head around Paul's mysteries. So, not everyone can be gentile.

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Clare73 said:

You reject the writings of the apostle Paul,
who received his gospel from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12)?

Jesus told the apostles, "He who listens to you, listens to me; he who rejects you, rejects me."
(Luke 10:16)

Click to expand...

To whom was your quote from Luke being addressed?
Was Saul of Tarsus one of Luke's 70?

Clare73 said:

You reject the writings of the apostle Paul,
who received his gospel from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12)?

Jesus told the apostles, "He who listens to you, listens to me; he who rejects you, rejects me."
(Luke 10:16)

Click to expand...

Ligurian said:

To whom was your quote from Luke being addressed?
Was Saul of Tarsus one of Luke's 70?

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He was an apostle as were the others (2 Corinthians 1:1; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:1; Colossians 1:1; 1 Timothy 1:1; 2 Timothy 1:1),

with the authority of Jesus Christ, including that of Luke 9:1-6, Luke 10:16, as were the others,

his gospel the gospel given him by Jesus Christ as were the others (Galatians 1:11-12; 2 Corinthians 12:1-8).

And denial of or failure to recognize Paul as such is contra-Christ and contra-NT.

Ligurian said:

You don't keep the Commandments of Iesus,
who received His Commandments from the Father
(Deuteronomy 18:18-19, John 12:48-50)?

Click to expand...

Ligurian said:

To whom was your quote from Luke being addressed? Was Saul of Tarsus one of Luke's 70?

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Clare73 said:

He was an apostle as were the others

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John 8:11 "go and sin no more"

Is that being addressed to Saul of Tarsus, too? since audience doesn't matter.

Ligurian said:

John 8:11 "go and sin no more"

Is that being addressed to Saul of Tarsus, too? since audience doesn't matter.

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Red herring. . .

Luke 9:1-6, Luke 10:16 were spoken to apostles and disciples.
Paul enjoyed the same authority as, and more (2 Corinthians 12:1-8) than they.

Ligurian said:

To whom was your quote from Luke being addressed?
Was Saul of Tarsus one of Luke's 70?

Click to expand...

Clare73 said:

He was an apostle as were the others (2 Corinthians 1:1; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:1; Colossians 1:1; 1 Timothy 1:1; 2 Timothy 1:1),

with the authority of Jesus Christ, including that of Luke 9:1-6, Luke 10:16, as were the others,

his gospel the gospel given him by Jesus Christ as were the others (Galatians 1:11-12; 2 Corinthians 12:1-8).

And denial of or failure to recognize Paul as such is contra-Christ and contra-NT.

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Clare73 said:

Luke 9:1-6, Luke 10:16 were spoken to apostles and disciples.
Paul enjoyed the same authority as, and more (2 Corinthians 12:1-8) than they.

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So then every word spoken about apostles applies to Paul?

But Paul was never called a disciple, was he?

BibleBeliever1611 said:

How can anyone in their mind like the doctrine of Calvinism?

One time, thinking about the fact that Jesus actually died for every single person on earth almost made me burst into tears. Thinking about the fact that no-one would have to go to hell. But then Calvinism feels really depressing when it says that God chose some special people who are only allowed to be saved for some mysterious reason. Like being part of some special group of special people, and I absolutely hate that and it disgusts me. But thank God, it's not even true anyway according to the Bible.

I wonder how the Calvinist would feel if every person on the entire earth was a saved born-again Christian. Maybe he wouldn't feel so special about himself.

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Let me get this straight so that I can understand your position better. You say that God dying for the world drives you to tears and God dying for "some" makes you angry and is very depressing. Why? God didn't just die for "some" God died for a large chunk of humanity greater than the stars in the sky from every tribe and nation. He gave his life for these people when they didn't deserve it. THAT is grace and drives ME to tears because God died for me and a large chunk of other people when we didn't deserve a thing.

You also mention that limited atonement is taught nowhere in scripture. Umm that couldn't be further from the truth the apostles taught limited atonement, God himself did in the OT scriptures and even Christ himself taught it in the gospels.

Reformed theology is taught all throughout scripture if you don't tunnel vision and twist the very few scriptures that seem to teach unlimited attonement on the surface but when you actually read them in context in the original language they teach no such thing.


Reformed theology isn't some theology the reformers made up it was taught throughout the scriptures. It's a shame people ignore scripture these days and instead go to their own religion and make up their own gods when the God of the Bible couldnt stare them any more straight in the eye in the first place.

Clare73 said:

You reject the writings of the apostle Paul,
who received his gospel from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12)?

Jesus told the apostles, "He who listens to you, listens to me; he who rejects you, rejects me."
(Luke 10:16)

Click to expand...

Ligurian said:

So then every word spoken about apostles applies to Paul?

But Paul was never called a disciple, was he?

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Previously addressed. . .Paul was an apostle, with all the authority of and guarantees to an apostle.

Ligurian said:

But Paul was never called a disciple, was he?

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Clare73 said:

Paul was an apostle, with all the authority of and guarantees to an apostle.

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Strong's Greek: 652. ἀπόστολος (apostolos) -- a messenger, one sent on a mission, an apostle

Within the Matthew and John Gospels,
the Greek word for apostle happens twice...

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is (ἀπόστολος) sent greater than he that sent him.
Matthew 10:1-2 And when He had called unto His Twelve Disciples, He gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.[2] Now the names of the Twelve Apostles are these

... the rest of the time, the 12 are called His Disciples.
In Matthew and John alone, they're called Disciples, 120 times.

And a (μαθητὰς) Disciple = a learner, a pupil. John 8:31.
Strong's Greek: 3101. μαθητής (mathétés) -- a disciple

Clare73 said:

You reject the writings of the apostle Paul,
who received his gospel from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12)?

Jesus told the apostles, "He who listens to you, listens to me; he who rejects you, rejects me."
(Luke 10:16)

Click to expand...

Ligurian said:

Strong's Greek: 652. ἀπόστολος (apostolos) -- a messenger, one sent on a mission, an apostle

Within the Matthew and John Gospels, the word apostle happens twice...

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How many times must Scripture say it before it is true?

The word "apostle" appears nearly 80 times in the NT.

Your point?

Neostarwcc said:

Reformed theology isn't some theology the reformers made up it was taught throughout the scriptures. It's a shame people ignore scripture these days and instead go to their own religion and make up their own gods when the God of the Bible couldnt stare them any more straight in the eye in the first place.

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Reformed theology is a view of scripture, a very harsh view. If you look at how the Early Church Fathers interoperate it you will see they were not into Reformed Theology but free will choice by man. They believed if we did not have free will we could not be judged or held accountable for sins. Even in the first and second centuries, some people have started to think of the scripture in terms of fatalism, or Predestination, the church fathers fight this idea, championing free will, as we see below:

BibleBeliever1611 said:

How can anyone in their mind like the doctrine of Calvinism?

One time, thinking about the fact that Jesus actually died for every single person on earth almost made me burst into tears. Thinking about the fact that no-one would have to go to hell. But then Calvinism feels really depressing when it says that God chose some special people who are only allowed to be saved for some mysterious reason. Like being part of some special group of special people, and I absolutely hate that and it disgusts me. But thank God, it's not even true anyway according to the Bible.

I wonder how the Calvinist would feel if every person on the entire earth was a saved born-again Christian. Maybe he wouldn't feel so special about himself.

Click to expand...

I'm with you on this one. I have been studying this topic for some time after encountering the idea of Predestination on this forum. I studied both the scriptures, and the Earliest Chruch Fathers, and I believe there is very strong evidence for the free will of people. I put all of my thoughts up on the following web page as a resource. It is a bit of a dog's breakfast, with lots of ideas all over the place, but it gives the argument for free will.

Is Predestination real? | Everybody Matters Ministry

Ligurian said:

You don't keep the Commandments of Iesus,
who received His Commandments from the Father
(Deuteronomy 18:18-19, John 12:48-50)?

Click to expand...

Ligurian said:

Strong's Greek: 652. ἀπόστολος (apostolos) -- a messenger, one sent on a mission, an apostle

Within the Matthew and John Gospels, the word apostle happens twice...

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is (ἀπόστολος) sent greater than he that sent him.
Matthew 10:1-2 And when He had called unto His Twelve Disciples, He gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.[2] Now the names of the Twelve Apostles are these

... the rest of the time, the 12 are called His Disciples. In Matthew and John alone, they're called Disciples over 100 times.

And a (μαθητὰς) Disciple = a learner, a pupil. John 8:31.
Strong's Greek: 3101. μαθητής (mathétés) -- a disciple

Click to expand...

Clare73 said:

How many times must Scripture say it before it is true?

The word "apostle" appears nearly 80 times in the NT.

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It matters not what others called them, but what they called themselves.

Called an Apostle, by Paul and Acts:
Acts 14:14, Romans 1:1, Romans 11:13, Romans 16:7, 1 Corinthians 1:1, 1 Corinthians 4:9, 1 Corinthians 9:1-2, 1 Corinthians 9:5, 1 Corinthians 12:28-29, 1 Corinthians 15:7, 1 Corinthians 15:9, 2 Corinthians 1:1, 2 Corinthians 8:23, 2 Corinthians 11:5, 2 Corinthians 12:11-12, Galatians 1:1, Ephesians 1:1, Ephesians 2:20, Ephesians 3:5, Ephesians 4:11, Philippians 2:25, Colossians 1:1, 1 Timothy 1:1, 1 Timothy 2:7, 2 Timothy 1:1, 2 Timothy 1:11, Titus 1:1.


Called Disciples, by Iesus' and His Disciples:
Matthew 5:1, Matthew 8:21, Matthew 8:23, Matthew 8:25, Matthew 9:10-11, Matthew 9:14, Matthew 9:19, Matthew 9:37, Matthew 10:1, Matthew 10:24-25, Matthew 10:42, Matthew 11:1-2, Matthew 12:1-2, Matthew 12:49, Matthew 13:10, Matthew 13:36, Matthew 14:12, Matthew 14:15, Matthew 14:19, Matthew 14:22, Matthew 14:26, Matthew 15:2, Matthew 15:12, Matthew 15:23, Matthew 15:32-33, Matthew 15:36, Matthew 16:5, Matthew 16:13, Matthew 16:20-21, Matthew 16:24, Matthew 17:6, Matthew 17:10, Matthew 17:13, Matthew 17:19, Matthew 18:1, Matthew 19:10, Matthew 19:13, Matthew 19:23, Matthew 19:25, Matthew 20:17, Matthew 21:1, Matthew 21:6, Matthew 22:16, Matthew 21:20, Matthew 23:1, Matthew 24:1, Matthew 24:3, Matthew 26:1, Matthew 26:8, Matthew 26:17-18, Matthew 26:19, Matthew 26:26, Matthew 26:35-36, Matthew 26:40, Matthew 26:45, Matthew 26:56, Matthew 27:64, Matthew 28:7-9, Matthew 28:16, John 2:2, John 2:11-12, John 2:17, John 2:22, John 3:22, John 3:25, John 4:1-2, John 4:8, John 4:27, John 4:31, John 4:33, John 6:3, John 6:8, John 6:11-12, John 6:16, John 6:22, John 6:24, John 7:3, John 8:31, John 9:2, John 9:27-28, John 11:7-8, John 11:54, John 12:16, John 13:5, John 13:22-23, John 13:35, John 15:8, John 16:29, John 18:1-2, John 18:15-17, John 18:19, John 18:25, John 19:26-27, John 20:2-4, John 20:8, John 20:10, John 20:18-20, John 20:25-26, John 20:30.

MMXX said:

Calvinism is a theology I would have to force myself into believing in completely.

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I agree at least in those forms of Calvinism that include Double Predestination or TULIP (which my friend @hedrick suggested Calvin himself did not stress to the extent commonly thought). The reason is that I have come to believe, under Patristic and Eastern Orthodox influence, very strongly in synergistic soteriology, because this reflects the hypostatic union of Christ Himself, our savior, and thus find myself rejecting all three monergistic positions (five-points Calvinism, Universalism, and Pelagianism) as untenable, but I greatly sympathize with the Calvinists and Universalists, because they attribute, with great humility, salvation to God, which I also do. In rejecting monergism I am not rejecting the idea of Soli Deo Gloria or even, from a divine perspective, determinism, which appears to be a logical consequence of omniscience, but rather am seeking to stay within a tradition that we see in St. John Cassian, and in the Cappadocians, and in St. John Chrysostom, and in St. Gregory Palamas, that we do participate in our salvation because God desires us to cooperate with His uncreated energies in the conduct of His plan to save us, which Orthodox theologians often refer to as the economy of Salvation.

Conversely, I find it difficult to have much sympathy for actual Pelagians, which I define as people who believe they can achieve salvation through their own effort with our Lord merely showing the way (as opposed to people accused of Pelagianism or who out of ignorance express interest in Pelagius in reaction to more extreme positions of St. Augustine). The actual Pelagian, and whether or not Pelagius himself really believed this, or if, like Nestorius, he did not grasp the implications of his doctrine (Nestorius was apparently unaware that the term Christotokos used to the exclusion of Theotokos precludes hypostatic union; I say apparently unaware because he claimed in his later years that Chalcedon reflected what he was trying to teach, which I find baffling since Chalcedon embraces hypostatic union and the title Theotokos, and Nestorius claimed his opposition to Theotokos, was, like that of Calvin, based on (what I regard to be an erroneous and misguided) opposition to a perceived excess of Marian veneration, yet Chalcedon upheld Ephesus in requiring the use of the title Theotokos (which Calvin conceded the accuracy of in his journals, even while publicly seeking to avoid use of the term for the same reason as Nestorius).

However, genuine Pelagianism, as I described it above, that is, a belief we can save our selves, which is very common in non-Christian heresies, for example, Buddhism, lacks the humility of both synergism, as understood using Patristic/Eastern Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox, Arminian and Wesleyan models, and what I would call Theocentric Monergism (Universalism, and ancient Monergism functionally similar to Calvinism, as proscribed by the Fifth Ecumenical Synod, as being related to Monophysitism), because in all of these non-Pelagian models, it is accepted that it is God who saves us, the only difference in opinion being the extent to which we participate in the process of our salvation and to what extent we have a choice.

Now, bearing in mind I am not a Calvinist, this article from a Calvinist apologetics site ironically entitled Monergism presents a positive image of Calvinism which I think explains why people, including myself at an earlier stage in my career, embrace it, and also shows how very close it is to both Universalism and Synergism (whether Arminian, or Wesleyan, or RC/EO/OO): Two Hesitations About TULIP. | Monergism

It is also because of this proximity I am able to warmly fellowship with Calvinists and have such a great admiration for Dr. James Kennedy, memory eternal, who was magnificent as a moral theologian, the greatest televangelist since Archbishop Fulton Sheen, and as the pastor of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church. I attended a sermon of his in person in 2006, when the liberalism in the UCC and other mainline denominations was really starting to offend me, which was thrilling, in which he was excited by the prospects of a future repeal of Roe v. Wade due to the pro-life direction the court was taking at the time, something which I rejoice has now finally come to fruition.

Actually, the obvious analogy of the incarnation would be compatibilism. Every act is both a free human choice and God’s.