How can an atheist have a relationship with God?

[Athée]

Athee,

First, If I may ask, why did you quit believing in God in the first place?
I ask this because you say, "re-acquired" your belief. That, to me, means you once believed, but you quit doing so.

Yup, I read 1 Peter 3:15 and decided to make a real effort to do this. I wanted to know what the non believers were saying so I read the atheist books and blogs as well as the Christian responses to them.
Took about 2 and a half years before I admitted to myself that I no longer believed.

 

[Athée]

Athée,

I'm thinking about "how an atheist can attempt a relationship with God?" And I'm thinking that it is indeed a tough question, especially as it reflects some of the meaning in the byline near my avatar (which is why I wrote that byline) ... And don't let the byline throw you; it's not meant to advocate relativism, even though that is how many will probably interpret it. Rather, it is meant to be an Axiom among axioms, even an anti-axiom of sorts, which is culled from my understanding of the various, scattered, unsystematic Epistemological Indices of the Bible, indices which don't comport with today's Epistemological ruts.

So, if I'm right, then your "earnest effort" will be, to some extent, contingent ...

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Can't you just write a nice clear post, fitting all your ideas into a nice, post enlightenment framework

 

[Athée]

Athee, you are right that the primary reference in Psalm 14:1 is to immoral people and I didn't mean to apply the context of the verse to you specifically. But the verse does have a secondary application to any one who dogmatically tells himself that there is no God. The context (14:2) addresses those who don't understand why they should believe God exists and those who don't consider it obligatory to " seek God." Similarly, though Romans 1-2 addresses atheists who are also immoral in many ways, it also makes the claim that God can be "seen" in His creation, thus making the skeptic without excuse.

No claim is made that God's existence can be demonstrated through rational arguments. What I now need to demonstrate is that NT faith should be based on a life-changing experience of the Holy Spirit that makes the decisive difference. But first I need to lay an additional foundation for this claim.

Arguments for God's existence are only as good as their underlying assumptions and these assumptions derive from our life experience. With no experience of the supernatural or the paranormal, the skeptic naturally relies on materialistic assumptions. Such was the case with atheist Oxford professor, C. S. Lewis. But as God gradually "stalked" him until he was converted, his basic assumptions were altered to fit his new experience.

I don't believe you are capable of simply changing your assumptions; rather, these can only be changed by expanding your horizons and facilitating self-authenticating mystical experience of the divine. To help you get there, I need to do 3 things:

(1) Demonstrate that the NT vision of faith is anchored to self-authenticating experience of the Holy Spirit.
(2) Demonstrate that NT miracles, especially the Resurrection can be traced to eyewitness testimony.
(3) Provide recent personal testimonies of how the same God works miracles today.

I won't expect you simply to accept (2)-(3) as decisive arguments. I only hope that (2)-(3) will inspire you to question your unconscious assumptions enough to open your heart to compelling experience from the Holy Spirit. 3 of my future posts will address (1)-(3) each in turn. Then, after we discuss those points, I will detail the biblically based method for finding God that works very well after suitable mental preparation.

Looking forward to it

 

[Ken Rank]

Hi all,

Deadworm threw down the gauntlet suggesting that I make an earnest effort to re-aquire my belief in God. I'm not sure what he has planned but I would very much like to be convinced so I will put myself in his hands for the journey.

I am not sure to what extent this will be an interactive, all participants welcome kind of thread, however of you feel like you have something to add please feel free to respectfully engage!

This will sound simplistic, but it is the best direct route to take in my opinion. If I were you and I was SINCERELY wanting to know about God... is He real, does He care, am I in His plan.... if you sincerely want to know these things and ask Him, I believe He will answer. Now here is the caveat... I doubt you will hear a thunderous voice... but you might hear a soft still voice like Elijah did. What might that sound like? Well, like you but only smarter. But it also might be that He will simply place people and things in your path that will make it clear. So... if you REALLY want to know and are willing to give Him a chance to reveal Himself to you... then find a few minutes of alone time and just ask Him if He will reveal Himself. Just be patient for an answer Athee... people are willing to give a Tylenol a half hour to dig into a headache but when God doesn't answer in 30 seconds we give up. He is the Creator of the Universe, not our personal genie. So, be patient and I wish you the best.

 

[victorinus]

Everyone has a relationship with God..

true
-
with God as Our Father - brothers all are we
-
outside of that, I don't know what you are talking about

 

[quatona]

true
-
with God as Our Father - brothers all are we
-
outside of that, I don't know what you are talking about

As a non-believer I agree:
IF there is a God we all necessarily do have a relationship with this God.
My relationship with God might be different from what certain believers think our relationship should be like - but that´s an entirely different issue.

 

[Deadworm]

Ken Rank, the question that needs to be addressed here is this: What can Athee do after he has done what you suggest and it just hasn't worked for him? Athee is an educated thinker and has honestly tried to research the case pro and con theism; and he even attends a church Bible study. I believe he is honestly listening to my challenge and is digesting the gradual steps I'm taking to set that challenge up.

 

[victorinus]

As a non-believer I agree:
IF there is a God we all necessarily do have a relationship with this God.
My relationship with God might be different from what certain believers think our relationship should be like - but that´s an entirely different issue.

the word 'relationship' has been corrupted
-and-
we should all go back to the original meaning

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Can't you just write a nice clear post, fitting all your ideas into a nice, post enlightenment framework

We could, but if we did that, it would take all of the "Wonderland" qualities out of the journey of faith which are so epistemologically interesting, and we'd be playing in the same rut that many others do. I've always rather thought the Lion of Judah was bit more enigmatic than what the typical syllogism can capture for us ... wouldn't you say?

 

[quatona]

the word 'relationship' has been corrupted
-and-
we should all go back to the original meaning

Well, semantics and the discussion whether etymology determines the meaning of a word (I don´t think it does nor should) aside - the original poster has a question, and when he uses a word, for purposes of his question and possible answers this word means what he wants it to mean.

 

[victorinus]

Well, semantics and the discussion whether etymology determines the meaning of a word (I don´t think it does nor should) aside - the original poster has a question, and when he uses a word, for purposes of his question and possible answers this word means what he wants it to mean.

he should use another word
-if-
he really wants to communicate

 

[Mountainmike]

Start with the reverse
What was it or what factors changed your mind to begin with?

Hi all,

Deadworm threw down the gauntlet suggesting that I make an earnest effort to re-aquire my belief in God. I'm not sure what he has planned but I would very much like to be convinced so I will put myself in his hands for the journey.

I am not sure to what extent this will be an interactive, all participants welcome kind of thread, however of you feel like you have something to add please feel free to respectfully engage!

Peace,
Athée

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

 

[quatona]

he should use another word
-if-
he really wants to communicate

Seeing how words have various meanings, I for one am willing to explore what he´s asking. In a conversation I am more interested in understanding the person opposite than in helping etymology. Ymmv.

 

[Deadworm]

(1) Modern Christian NT interpretation often overlooks a point well recognized by modern NT scholarship: that Paul's theological language often describes uplifting mystical experience. On this topic, Albert Schweitzer's old book "The Mysticism of Paul the Apostle" is a seminal classic. Once my Harvard NT professor, Dieter Georgi, was trying to nudge me away from an overly systematic and abstract view of Paul's epistles and cryptically said to me, "Mr. ___, you must remember that Paul likely wrote this in a crowded kitchen full of the smell of garlic. "

Paul urges us to walk in the Spirit, be led by the Spirit, and pray in the Spirit. Without detailing what each phrase means, I just want to draw attention to Paul's insistence that we routinely experience life in the Spirit rather than just try to apply dry biblical principles. Nowhere is this clearer than in Paul's disclosure of his disdain for attempting persuasive argumentation to make converts.

2 And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power (1 Corinthians 2:1-5)."

Paul wants his converts to base their faith on direct experience of the Spirit's power and guidance, not on an apologetically compelling faith! But Paul is well aware of our tendency to abandon our contemplative prayer life and replace it with doctrinal purity gained through debate and conflict. Listen to how he scolds the Galatians for their unhealthy shift of focus:

"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?...Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard (Galatians 3:1-5)?"

It is Paul's rich inner life, nourished by the fruit of the Spirit, that enables him to claim: " I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me (2:20)."

Paul urges introspective self-examination to determine whether a believer's faith is real and an awareness of the indwelling Christ is an essential part of this testing: " Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the testing (2 Corinthians 13:5)?"

My eventual provision of a methodology to experience the Spirit is intended by respect Paul's convictions on the ideal way for this to happen.

 

[Athée]

This will sound simplistic, but it is the best direct route to take in my opinion. If I were you and I was SINCERELY wanting to know about God... is He real, does He care, am I in His plan.... if you sincerely want to know these things and ask Him, I believe He will answer. Now here is the caveat... I doubt you will hear a thunderous voice... but you might hear a soft still voice like Elijah did. What might that sound like? Well, like you but only smarter. But it also might be that He will simply place people and things in your path that will make it clear. So... if you REALLY want to know and are willing to give Him a chance to reveal Himself to you... then find a few minutes of alone time and just ask Him if He will reveal Himself. Just be patient for an answer Athee... people are willing to give a Tylenol a half hour to dig into a headache but when God doesn't answer in 30 seconds we give up. He is the Creator of the Universe, not our personal genie. So, be patient and I wish you the best.

How could I distinguish your method from confirmation bias do you think?

 

[Athée]

We could, but if we did that, it would take all of the "Wonderland" qualities out of the journey of faith which are so epistemologically interesting, and we'd be playing in the same rut that many others do. I've always rather thought the Lion of Judah was bit more enigmatic than what the typical syllogism can capture for us ... wouldn't you say?

I honestly don't know It seems to me that if he existed as a deity here on earth we might expect our epistemological categories to be messed with in considering him. That said if he exists as part of our reality then foundational ism should still apply to some extent... I think?

 

[Ken Rank]

How could I distinguish your method from confirmation bias do you think?

Don't take this the wrong way... but you're a humanist, your natural bias will be against hearing or seeing. So... if you attempt this with sincerity, you'll still be a cynic and God knows that. He doesn't ever pull the rug out from under us, meaning... we don't just 'change' on a dime. Look at it like a ladder... one rung at a time. What you hear might be small and just a step ahead of where you are now... but it will be a step toward Him, not away from Him and that is how you will know. Let me know how it goes if you don't mind. Peace.

 

[Athée]

(1) Modern Christian NT interpretation often overlooks a point well recognized by modern NT scholarship: that Paul's theological language often describes uplifting mystical experience. On this topic, Albert Schweitzer's old book "The Mysticism of Paul the Apostle" is a seminal classic. Once my Harvard NT professor, Dieter Georgi, was trying to nudge me away from an overly systematic and abstract view of Paul's epistles and cryptically said to me, "Mr. ___, you must remember that Paul likely wrote this in a crowded kitchen full of the smell of garlic. "

Paul urges us to walk in the Spirit, be led by the Spirit, and pray in the Spirit. Without detailing what each phrase means, I just want to draw attention to Paul's insistence that we routinely experience life in the Spirit rather than just try to apply dry biblical principles. Nowhere is this clearer than in Paul's disclosure of his disdain for attempting persuasive argumentation to make converts.

2 And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power (1 Corinthians 2:1-5)."

Paul wants his converts to base their faith on direct experience of the Spirit's power and guidance, not on an apologetically compelling faith! But Paul is well aware of our tendency to abandon our contemplative prayer life and replace it with doctrinal purity gained through debate and conflict. Listen to how he scolds the Galatians for their unhealthy shift of focus:

"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?...Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard (Galatians 3:1-5)?"

It is Paul's rich inner life, nourished by the fruit of the Spirit, that enables him to claim: " I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me (2:20)."

Paul urges introspective self-examination to determine whether a believer's faith is real and an awareness of the indwelling Christ is an essential part of this testing: " Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the testing (2 Corinthians 13:5)?"

My eventual provision of a methodology to experience the Spirit is intended by respect Paul's convictions on the ideal way for this to happen.

Sounds good. Seems like a very evidential approach

 

[Ken Rank]

.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I honestly don't know It seems to me that if he existed as a deity here on earth we might expect our epistemological categories to be messed with in considering him. That said if he exists as part of our reality then foundational ism should still apply to some extent... I think?

Yes, I think we can expect our E-categories to remain as constructs in our minds that, although useful for our general lives, won't quite get good traction on all of God's engagement with our reality. And another problem is that there are limitations and complications (not just complexities) with the use of any theory of knowledge, and none of them is perfect and without needling disconnects in thought.

So, don't count your chicken eggs laying in a row in the Foundationalist's coop. They might not hatch as expected if the coop is placed in the wrong environment.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid