How are we to explain these "miracles?"

[Heissonear]

Here's a question. Assume for a moment that we found something that was entirely unexplainable by natural possibilities, such that we were CERTAIN that something supernatural had happened.

Why are you so sure it is your own deity that has intervened, and not Zeus, Allah, Atum, Mbombo, Kamuy, Vishvakarman, Viracocha, Pangu....and the list goes on and on and on and on and on? Are there any hallmarks of a theistic intervention that would allow us to conclusively demonstrate which of the many tens of thousands of "Gods" intervened and thus exists? Or be sure that an invisible space alien hadn't done it instead?

It's jolly convenient that when people cite the evidence for the existence of a deity (or, more accurately, misappropriate the evidence), they always make the assumption that it is their own deity, naturally, that did it.

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Clearly understandable with what we know about the history of world religions, and all the differences in beliefs that have come about over time, but not applicable to this Miracle on earth. Cells and other body materials were Created in order to form the new arm, hand and fingers. One minute the child had a serious deformity in life and the next minute new body materials existed and his arm was normal.

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[PsychoSarah]

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Clearly understandable with what we know about the history of world religions, and all the differences in beliefs that have come about over time, but not applicable to this Miracle on earth. Cells and other body materials were Created in order to form the new arm, hand and fingers. One minute the child had a serious deformity in life and the next minute new body materials existed and his arm was normal.

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And rather than share this with others, you play it off as a "private miracle", as if this sort of thing couldn't make a difference to other people.

 

[davidbilby]

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Clearly understandable with what we know about the history of world religions, and all the differences in beliefs that have come about over time, but not applicable to this Miracle on earth. Cells and other body materials were Created in order to form the new arm, hand and fingers. One minute the child had a serious deformity in life and the next minute new body materials existed and his arm was normal.

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And what about that is unique to the Judeo-Christian God? There are no other religions claiming such miracles for their deity throughout history? Oh wait, yes, there are, from the shrines of ancient Greece onwards. Curiously, they also accepted donations, and advertised that the likelihood of receiving intervention from the deity was related to the amount of your donation. A "medical indulgence", if you will.

Even if it WAS unique to the Judeo-Christian religion, if there was a confirmable miracle (just for sake of imagination)...wouldn't every religion in the world claim it as their own? Thank goodness there hasn't been. The only reason it is a rampant belief in Christianity is, frankly, because of the pervading influence of the Catholic Church and it being a prerequisite to sainthood. Pentacostalists just nicked the idea, mostly likely from the narcissistic predilection of so many "preachers" to be almost "revered" themselves, not to mention, it fills the coffers.

There's no faith healers in any hospital for a very good reason.

At least Islam doesn't try to claim that Mohammed did anything other than inspire people...

 

[Heissonear]

And what about that is unique to the Judeo-Christian God? There are no other religions claiming such miracles for their deity throughout history? Oh wait, yes, there are, from the shrines of ancient Greece onwards. Curiously, they also accepted donations, and advertised that the likelihood of receiving intervention from the deity was related to the amount of your donation. A "medical indulgence", if you will.

Even if it WAS unique to the Judeo-Christian religion, if there was a confirmable miracle (just for sake of imagination)...wouldn't every religion in the world claim it as their own? Thank goodness there hasn't been. The only reason it is a rampant belief in Christianity is, frankly, because of the pervading influence of the Catholic Church and it being a prerequisite to sainthood. Pentacostalists just nicked the idea, mostly likely from the narcissistic predilection of so many "preachers" to be almost "revered" themselves, not to mention, it fills the coffers.

There's no faith healers in any hospital for a very good reason.

At least Islam doesn't try to claim that Mohammed did anything other than inspire people...

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You only have thoughts and words and perceptions - what Supernatural Power have YOU witnessed? And have YOU met Him who demonstrated such Power before you? Who was He?

Those in Spiritual Poverty are typically confused about Spiritual Dynamics and Beings.

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[PsychoSarah]

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You only have thoughts and words and perceptions - what Supernatural Power have YOU witnessed? And have YOU met Him who demonstrated such Power before you? Who was He?

Those in Spiritual Poverty are typically confused about Spiritual Dynamics and Beings.

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Assuming you aren't mistaken or lying about the miracle you claim to have witnessed, is it fair for you to judge people who haven't seen a miracle for have doubts you don't as a result of the fact that you were so lucky as to have seen one?

 

[bhsmte]

And what about that is unique to the Judeo-Christian God? There are no other religions claiming such miracles for their deity throughout history? Oh wait, yes, there are, from the shrines of ancient Greece onwards. Curiously, they also accepted donations, and advertised that the likelihood of receiving intervention from the deity was related to the amount of your donation. A "medical indulgence", if you will.

Even if it WAS unique to the Judeo-Christian religion, if there was a confirmable miracle (just for sake of imagination)...wouldn't every religion in the world claim it as their own? Thank goodness there hasn't been. The only reason it is a rampant belief in Christianity is, frankly, because of the pervading influence of the Catholic Church and it being a prerequisite to sainthood. Pentacostalists just nicked the idea, mostly likely from the narcissistic predilection of so many "preachers" to be almost "revered" themselves, not to mention, it fills the coffers.

There's no faith healers in any hospital for a very good reason.

At least Islam doesn't try to claim that Mohammed did anything other than inspire people...

I thought faith healers were covered under Obamacare, as long as they were in network?

 

[Kylie]

I dont think they came up with one. They just said there was no explanation. One week she had an aggressive cancer that was allover her lungs and had spread to her brain and other organs. The church was praying for a miracle and a few weeks later she had no cancer. It was completely gone, not a trace. So is it a coincidence that people were praying and she was healed or was it something else. I know they say the power of positive thinking can make a difference or that some cancers can regress and just about disappear. But they are normally not major cancers and there has even been misdiagnosis that was the reason why the cancer had gone because it wasn't there in the first place. But this was full blown and as cancers do they rot and eat away and deteriorate the lungs and other organs. So not only had the cancer gone it also made all the decayed organs new again.

Ah. People thinking that correlation implies causality. Can't come up with a rational explanation, and they don't really bother about it either, because assuming it's a miracle makes them feel so much better.

 

[davidbilby]

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You only have thoughts and words and perceptions - what Supernatural Power have YOU witnessed? And have YOU met Him who demonstrated such Power before you? Who was He?

Those in Spiritual Poverty are typically confused about Spiritual Dynamics and Beings.

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What makes you assume any supernatural deity a person meets would have the very human attribute of being male? Oh right, that's because throughout history humanity has constructed creators in its own image. The one thing history has taught us the human brain interprets and manipulates the data it receives, and everything is essentially subjective. I choose to realise that since no verifiable supernatural event, no suspension of the order of nature has occurred that can be verified - that the human mind (afraid as it is of the dark, the unknown, and death) finds solace in answers - even fabricated ones, and that our moral code is innate that "do into others as you would have them do to you" is an innate part of why our species has survived as long as we have, and why we weren't extinct long before any purported "holy book" was required.

 

[stevevw]

Ah. People thinking that correlation implies causality. Can't come up with a rational explanation, and they don't really bother about it either, because assuming it's a miracle makes them feel so much better.

Well its the doctors who say they cant come up with an explanation. They are not believers and have no reason to take sides. they are just doing their job. So its not their fault that something strange happens out of the ordinary. I guess the people involved with the church and the women herself felt it was a miracle because it happened soon after they prayed. So the women had been diagnosed with cancer and then the church in her town decided to go about praying for her.

Within a couple of weeks she was feeling better and eventually went in to see what was going on. The doctors couldn't find any cancer at all. So it went from stage 4 cancer of the lungs that had spread to the brain to no cancer within weeks of praying. So i wouldn't blame them for thinking that they had something to do with it. Yes that is no direct evidence linking the two but it sure looks like that. Either that or its a mighty big coincidence.

What would be the odds of that happening. But because no one has checked it out to see if there is another reason you cant say 100% it is a miracle. But I would like to think it is and all the people who prayed got a miracle. The Vatican which has a very stringent process for establishing whether the case has merit seem to think it was a genuine miracle. This then allowed Mary Mackillop her 2nd miracle and she was made a saint.

So this so called coincidence has happened twice now. If it has a good outcome why does it matter the women and the church prayed and got what they asked for. If it was all in their heads then something still worked and good for them. If it worked it worked.

 

[Kylie]

Well its the doctors who say they cant come up with an explanation. They are not believers and have no reason to take sides. they are just doing their job. So its not their fault that something strange happens out of the ordinary. I guess the people involved with the church and the women herself felt it was a miracle because it happened soon after they prayed. So the women had been diagnosed with cancer and then the church in her town decided to go about praying for her.

Correlation does not imply causality.

Within a couple of weeks she was feeling better and eventually went in to see what was going on. The doctors couldn't find any cancer at all. So it went from stage 4 cancer of the lungs that had spread to the brain to no cancer within weeks of praying. So i wouldn't blame them for thinking that they had something to do with it. Yes that is no direct evidence linking the two but it sure looks like that. Either that or its a mighty big coincidence.

Again, correlation does not imply causality.

What would be the odds of that happening. But because no one has checked it out to see if there is another reason you cant say 100% it is a miracle. But I would like to think it is and all the people who prayed got a miracle. The Vatican which has a very stringent process for establishing whether the case has merit seem to think it was a genuine miracle. This then allowed Mary Mackillop her 2nd miracle and she was made a saint.

No, I can't prove that it wasn't a miracle, but it is extraordinarily unlikely.

So this so called coincidence has happened twice now. If it has a good outcome why does it matter the women and the church prayed and got what they asked for. If it was all in their heads then something still worked and good for them. If it worked it worked.

Well, for a start, the next time people get sick, it might encourage them to use prayer instead of seeking medical help. Lots of people have died from that, you know.

 

[Heissonear]

What makes you assume any supernatural deity a person meets would have the very human attribute of being male? Oh right, that's because throughout history humanity has constructed creators in its own image. The one thing history has taught us the human brain interprets and manipulates the data it receives, and everything is essentially subjective. I choose to realise that since no verifiable supernatural event, no suspension of the order of nature has occurred that can be verified - that the human mind (afraid as it is of the dark, the unknown, and death) finds solace in answers - even fabricated ones, and that our moral code is innate that "do into others as you would have them do to you" is an innate part of why our species has survived as long as we have, and why we weren't extinct long before any purported "holy book" was required.

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It appears your knowledge has puffed you up and may keep you in confusion and darkness.

I was once like you. Even in college English 101 wrote a paper "Why Funerals" which ticked off the professor. But hey, when there are no higher powers or God or after life things that have and still do happen on earth can be seen totally different. You are expressing such logically.

But Mate, like I found out, I was wrong in my unbelief and modern day knowledge. I was blind to the Spiritual Realm, which included works from the powers of Darkness to distort everything of God allowable, which over time has accumulated and was once my sermon before others, what they heard from me, but no longer so from me, but now it has become your sermon to carry forth and proclaim.

However, there really is only One God, not a plurality of them, so where did all these other Gods and ways to believe come from over time? Dare you really want to find out? Or do you want to continue to just play your modern day intellectual game of it's all confusion and manmade religiousness - none of the plurality of religions and teachings are right - it's all error - it has always been just the workings within people's minds?


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[Kylie]

Heis, doesn't your above post boil down to, "I once felt like I assume you feel, and I concluded that I was wrong regarding those feelings. Since I concluded that I was wrong, you should thus conclude that you are wrong too, on the basis of my own personal revelation which I have not described in anything more than vague statements."

Why would that be considered any kind of argument...?

(BTW, just realised your user name is He is so near. I always thought it was German or something and was wondering why it didn't seem familiar...lol)

 

[Heissonear]

Heis, doesn't your above post boil down to, "I once felt like I assume you feel, and I concluded that I was wrong regarding those feelings. Since I concluded that I was wrong, you should thus conclude that you are wrong too, on the basis of my own personal revelation which I have not described in anything more than vague statements."

Why would that be considered any kind of argument...?

(BTW, just realised your user name is He is so near. I always thought it was German or something and was wondering why it didn't seem familiar...lol)

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Like it was for me, you have so much to find about the Spiritual Realm in our midst! You are use to looking at and talking to mere people on earth, and fail to see the over shadowing of Him on High and other Eternal Beings around us all the time. He has always listened to everything you have said and even thought, and has watched everything you have done, even to the last detail about you. He controls your circumstances and experiences in this life. Waking up to the Spiritual Realm Dynamics awaits you, in truth. He is always so near!

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[BL2KTN]

Behold Heissonear... the guy who claims a miracle he could easily show, yet refuses to do so without any reason whatsoever. Perhaps tomorrow we will be visited by an equally silly person who will claim a bank deposit from a leprechaun?

 

[AV1611VET]

Perhaps tomorrow we will be visited by an equally silly person who will claim a bank deposit from a leprechaun?

Or that we are mutant copy-errors of our parents, who are glorified apes?

Or that Thalidomide is a prenatal wond...

... skip that one, we've already been visited by them.

 

[BL2KTN]

Or that we are mutant copy-errors of our parents, who are glorified apes?

Or that Thalidomide is a prenatal wond...

... skip that one, we've already been visited by them.

Words can take a hike!

 

[Kylie]

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Like it was for me, you have so much to find about the Spiritual Realm in our midst! You are use to looking at and talking to mere people on earth, and fail to see the over shadowing of Him on High and other Eternal Beings around us all the time. He has always listened to everything you have said and even thought, and has watched everything you have done, even to the last detail about you. He controls your circumstances and experiences in this life. Waking up to the Spiritual Realm Dynamics awaits you, in truth. He is always so near!

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More vague claims. Oh, it was so good for me, therefore it will be good for you as well.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Or that we are mutant copy-errors of our parents, who are glorified apes?

Or that Thalidomide is a prenatal wond...

... skip that one, we've already been visited by them.

Hey, even you have to admit withholding absolute proof of miracles would be selfish.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Hey, even you have to admit withholding absolute proof of miracles would be selfish.

Which pales in comparison to selectively committing them.

 

[davidbilby]

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It appears your knowledge has puffed you up and may keep you in confusion and darkness.

We can let the audience judge who is confused. I'm thinking you may not fare well on that front.

I was once like you. Even in college English 101 wrote a paper "Why Funerals" which ticked off the professor. But hey, when there are no higher powers or God or after life things that have and still do happen on earth can be seen totally different. You are expressing such logically.

I imagine it ticked off the professor for being trite and disingenuous, which is what I can ascertain from the title alone. I can also ascertain you didn't get high marks for grammar, which was probably more of a concern in English "101".

But Mate, like I found out, I was wrong in my unbelief and modern day knowledge. I was blind to the Spiritual Realm, which included works from the powers of Darkness to distort everything of God allowable, which over time has accumulated and was once my sermon before others, what they heard from me, but no longer so from me, but now it has become your sermon to carry forth and proclaim.

That is word salad of the highest order. That isn't a compliment.

However, there really is only One God, not a plurality of them, so where did all these other Gods and ways to believe come from over time?

And you ascertained that...how? Every monotheistic religion claims they have the one true God. It's ubiquitous to every monotheistic religion. They cannot all be right, but they can all be wrong.

Dare you really want to find out? Or do you want to continue to just play your modern day intellectual game of it's all confusion and manmade religiousness - none of the plurality of religions and teachings are right - it's all error - it has always been just the workings within people's minds?
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Funny that the only bit of your post that makes any sense is the part adequately summing up the argument against you. This bit sounds almost lucid.