How are we to explain these "miracles?"

[Heissonear]

More vague claims, not a shred of evidence to support. And you did absolutely NOTHING to show that occam's razor is wrong.

So why should I believe?

Because you really REALLY think it's true? Sorry, the fact that you think it's true isn't good enough for me.

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Since when does someone with firsthand witness have to prove something. You are acting like it's not real without your verification.

Sorry Matess, a no go for you means nothing, you are empty handed. The one with experience prevails. Others agree or not has no bearing. I face Naturalists like you all the time, like their unbelief is what decides the truth. Naturalists think they have the pinnacle of truth about this existence, but have zero Spiritual apprehension.

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[PsychoSarah]

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Since when does someone with firsthand witness have to prove something. You are acting like it's not real without your verification.

Sorry Matess, a no go for you means nothing, you are empty handed. The one with experience prevails. Others agree or not has no bearing. I face Naturalists like you all the time, like their unbelief is what decides the truth. Naturalists think they have the pinnacle of truth about this existence, but have zero Spiritual apprehension.

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If someone told you that after praying to Vishnu, their child regrew a missing limb, would you just believe it without even a name or a date for when the event happened? This individual saw Vishnu perform the miracle, not the Christian god, Vishnu, with their own eyes. But they provide 0 proof for this claim, they just tell the story. Now it would make sense that they would be strong in their religious conviction after seeing a god with their own eyes, but if they provide no evidence to you are you going to believe them?

 

[Kylie]

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Since when does someone with firsthand witness have to prove something. You are acting like it's not real without your verification.

Sorry Matess, a no go for you means nothing, you are empty handed. The one with experience prevails. Others agree or not has no bearing. I face Naturalists like you all the time, like their unbelief is what decides the truth. Naturalists think they have the pinnacle of truth about this existence, but have zero Spiritual apprehension.

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Are you ever going to post something more than vague claims and a sales pitch?

But I'm intrigued by your claim that someone with firsthand evidence doesn't need to prove anything. Very well, I accept this condition.

I created the universe. I created the stars and the auroras and the dragonflies because I think they are pretty. What's that? You don't believe me? But I am the one who did it. I have firsthand experience of what I did, therefore I don't have to prove anything. You should just believe me!

(I suspect that you now see that making claims with no supporting evidence is worthless as a means of convincing people of something. Now you know how I feel about your claims)

 

[Heissonear]

Are you ever going to post something more than vague claims and a sales pitch?

But I'm intrigued by your claim that someone with firsthand evidence doesn't need to prove anything. Very well, I accept this condition.

I created the universe. I created the stars and the auroras and the dragonflies because I think they are pretty. What's that? You don't believe me? But I am the one who did it. I have firsthand experience of what I did, therefore I don't have to prove anything. You should just believe me!

(I suspect that you now see that making claims with no supporting evidence is worthless as a means of convincing people of something. Now you know how I feel about your claims)

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Naturalists can be a bit slow at learning!

Naturalists say Miracles do not happen. Where is THEIR (Naturalists) proof! Who is empty handed?

We are talking about reality, so discard the hypothetical. We are talking about what is real. I've seen Miracles and all you can do is say back up my claim?

Naturalists have done this to themselves, Matess.

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[bhsmte]

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Naturalists can be a bit slow at learning!

Naturalists say Miracles do not happen. Where is THEIR (Naturalists) proof! Who is empty handed?

We are talking about reality, so discard the hypothetical. We are talking about what is real. I've seen Miracles and all you can do is say back up my claim?

Naturalists have done this to themselves, Matess.

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Amusing Heiss, very amusing.

 

[Heissonear]

Amusing Heiss, very amusing.

.

True, it is amusing, but it is also a dilemma that Naturalist are in, a dilemma they have brought upon themselves.. Remember, it is Occam's Razor, fraud, deception, a lie, hallucination, psychosis, power of your mind, trick, ........

Including some of the lastest posts by Naturalists stating "how do you know it was supernatural, did you search for all other possibilities, .........

Naturalism and Scientism keeps people in Spiritual Poverty, like Miracles never happen - there has never been on earth Power from on High displayed and ruled over the natural, even Creative Power making body components come into existence to make parts of peoples bodies whole and normal.

Who is in a dilemma and needs proof?

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[quatona]

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True, it is amusing, but it is also a dilemma that Naturalist are in, a dilemma they have brought upon themselves.. Remember, it is Occam's Razor, fraud, deception, a lie, hallucination, psychosis, power of your mind, trick, ........

Including some of the lastest posts by Naturalists stating "how do you know it was supernatural, did you search for all other possibilities, .........

Naturalism and Scientism keeps people in Spiritual Poverty, like Miracles never happen - there has never been on earth Power from on High displayed and ruled over the natural, even Creative Power making body components come into existence to make parts of peoples bodies whole and normal.

Who is in a dilemma and needs proof?

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What´s not amusing but rather annoying are your permanent attempts to veil the fact that you can´t come up with a working epistemology of the "supernatural" by strawman attacks on "naturalism".
Even if assuming that the "supernatural" exists there´s no way around acknowledging that there´s "fraud, deception, a lie, hallucination, psychosis, power of your mind, trick", as well.
You keep evading the question how to tell these apart.

 

[Heissonear]

What´s not amusing but rather annoying are your permanent attempts to veil the fact that you can´t come up with a working epistemology of the "supernatural" by strawman attacks on "naturalism".
Even if assuming that the "supernatural" exists there´s no way around acknowledging that there´s "fraud, deception, a lie, hallucination, psychosis, power of your mind, trick", as well.
You keep evading the question how to tell these apart.

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Why do you ask again? You have been told it is simple and easy to tell the natural from the supernatural. One experience will show you so!

As one example, it says in Acts that when Paul encountered Jesus's " Presence", and was blinded temporarily by "light", what did Paul say? He knew it was a Heavenly encounter, but more so an encounter with a Heavenly (Supernatural) Being!!! It was obvious.

But all you are seeking at this point are words and knowledge from words. That is called head knowledge, mere head knowledge rather than the Substance that you then use words to try and explain!!!

.

 

[bhsmte]

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Since when does someone with firsthand witness have to prove something. You are acting like it's not real without your verification.

Sorry Matess, a no go for you means nothing, you are empty handed. The one with experience prevails. Others agree or not has no bearing. I face Naturalists like you all the time, like their unbelief is what decides the truth. Naturalists think they have the pinnacle of truth about this existence, but have zero Spiritual apprehension.

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Heiss, you don't have to prove anything, you can certainly just choose to believe it yourself.

I just wouldn't expect anyone else to believe it, if it can't be objectively verified.

 

[TLK Valentine]

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Since when does someone with firsthand witness have to prove something. You are acting like it's not real without your verification.

Because it's not. We need a reliable witness for verification.

 

[Heissonear]

Heiss, you don't have to prove anything, you can certainly just choose to believe it yourself.

I just wouldn't expect anyone else to believe it, if it can't be objectively verified.

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True, but by far I am not alone. He makes many witnesses, not just of Miracles but His Anointing that teaches and leads, even Children of the Kingdom.

And there is His Witness! He respects and matures freewill, but He does not bear false witness, nor let false witness run free against the Spiritual Realm Existence. Other Miracles that attests of His Power Ruling over the Natural are still of and according to His purpose against the stern unbeliever's promotions.

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[bhsmte]

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True, but by far I am not alone. He makes many witnesses, not just of Miracles but His Anointing that teaches and leads, even Children of the Kingdom.

And there is His Witness! He respects and matures freewill, but He does not bear false witness, nor let false witness run free against the Spiritual Realm Existence. Another Miracle that attests of His Power Ruling over the Natural is still of and according to His purpose against the stern unbeliever's promotions.

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Cool. Then all those he has chosen to witness miracles can believe them.

 

[PsychoSarah]

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True, but by far I am not alone. He makes many witnesses, not just of Miracles but His Anointing that teaches and leads, even Children of the Kingdom.

And there is His Witness! He respects and matures freewill, but He does not bear false witness, nor let false witness run free against the Spiritual Realm Existence. Other Miracles that attests of His Power Ruling over the Natural are still of and according to His purpose against the stern unbeliever's promotions.

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Obviously not the case, as miracles have been faked and have gone decades, even centuries without being recognized as fakes.

 

[quatona]

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Why do you ask again? You have been told it is simple and easy to tell the natural from the supernatural. One experience will show you so!

I ask again, because you keep evading the question, and you did so again.

One experience or one example does not a working epistemology or method make.

What does your superiour insider knowledge tell you about the incident in the OP (15 people being late to the choir rehearsal)? Was that a miracle - yes or no?

As one example, it says in Acts that when Paul encountered Jesus's " Presence", and was blinded temporarily by "light", what did Paul say? He knew it was a Heavenly encounter, but more so an encounter with a Heavenly (Supernatural) Being!!! It was obvious.

Ah, so all it takes is someone saying "I know it´s a Heavenly encounter"?

 

[Kylie]

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Naturalists can be a bit slow at learning!

Naturalists say Miracles do not happen. Where is THEIR (Naturalists) proof! Who is empty handed?

We are talking about reality, so discard the hypothetical. We are talking about what is real. I've seen Miracles and all you can do is say back up my claim?

Naturalists have done this to themselves, Matess.

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Are you actually kidding me? This is no argument.

You say that there are no Happy Little Elves who live on the far side of the moon. But where is your proof they do not exist?

And yes, I demand that you back up your claim, because anyone can CLAIM they've seen a miracle. Why, I saw my daughter float around the living room just last night! See how easy it is? But a claim is worthless by itself.

So back up your claim with evidence or it is meaningless.

 

[stevevw]

So if someone from say 1880 saw what we can do now they may say it was a miracle. Maybe soon we can build a bionic limb that is connected to the nervous system and responsive to the signals we give that limb to move just like a real one. So someone from the 1800s would see the person with no leg and then have a leg that looked and worked like a real one. They could sit down and work out how it was done or get some inclination that it was mechanical and man made. But at first they would think it was a miracle. It would be harder to tell with some of the new tech like 3d printers that would seem to make a perfect copy of almost anything from what looks like thin air. Now they could see that there was some sort of process that done this but they would not understand it. But they would still be amazed and even scared of the ability that produced it. They simply dont understand whats going on and the tech is beyond their comprehension so they think of it as some sort of hocus pocus or witch craft. We would thing the same if we seen something beyond our understanding. But yet we are g beginning to accept more that almost anything can happen with the way tech is accelerating and producing amazing things.

Would this be the same for a true miracle. There would have to be some sort of process for it to happen. Matter would react and transform in a certain way for it to happen. It may defy all the known laws of physics but someone could get to sort of understand how it could happen. So maybe this is what a miracle can be. Something that is beyond our understanding but there is still a process even if it defies the normal way things are done. Maybe it will always be beyond our capabilities to understand but that doesn't mean its not possible.

In the bible times not everyone seen miracles and many were told about them so they had to take the persons word for it. Since then we are told of what happened when Christ returned and we also have to take it on others words. I have read that these miracles were done at that time as part of that time when Christ was here. They dont happen as much since then as we have the holy spirit which can be as real as a miracle by revealing to us God in his fullness. But there will come a time when great things will happen again as the spirit of God is poured out upon the world. The bible says there will be great signs and wonders in the end time. Jesus says we will know that time is coming like the seasons turns as with autumn and the leaves fall from the trees.

Maybe it is a time of awareness where we are becoming more ready and able to accept and see these things happen. If they happened for all the world to see to early then the fullness of Christs sacrifice and the defeat of Satan could not be complete. So it will all come in its right time. The more man can make his own miracles and start to believe he can do anything the more he will be ready to see the signs and wonders of God. Still many will not believe and make up explanations as to why it happens. Yet they will be fooled by Satan with his trickery in which he will have his own great wonders. There will be a rejection of God in the end times. The more God is shown to be true the more some will despise him and want him destroyed. This is Satan doing his work as he wants to be God and make this world his kingdom.

Now we are beginning to look into the very core of existence with quantum physics. We are seeing some amazing and unusual things. Things that defy normal physics. Particles popping in and out of existence. Particles acting like they are connected even if they are millions of miles apart. Particles being in two different states at the same time. Maybe this is looking into what God is. Maybe this is how God can manipulate our reality by playing around with the quantum physics of things. If he is the creator of these things then he must be able to also control them. I read an interesting article called quantum glory which talked about how quantum physics is actually proving there is a God and showing how God works in the quantum world.
http://lifebeyondnow.com/quantum-glory-some-thoughts/

 

[Armoured]

So, my big question whenever anyone presents the "unexplained miracles, therefore God" argument, much like when they produce the "Christian martyrs, therefor God" argument, is, "so how do you explain miracles in other religious traditions?"

Then I link to the Ganesha statue drinking milk video, and never get a response. Fun huh?
MILK MIRACLE Lord Ganesh Drinks Milk Offering - YouTube

 

[stevevw]

So, my big question whenever anyone presents the "unexplained miracles, therefore God" argument, much like when they produce the "Christian martyrs, therefor God" argument, is, "so how do you explain miracles in other religious traditions?"

Then I link to the Ganesha statue drinking milk video, and never get a response. Fun huh?
MILK MIRACLE Lord Ganesh Drinks Milk Offering - YouTube

The Milk drinking is not proven beyond any doubt. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who claim miracles when there is another explanation. Especially when the film is all blurry and you can't see everything that is going on. It looked like he spilled most of the milk off the back of the spoon and into the bowl. It was funny how they didn't show the bottom of the bowl clearly. I have seen better magic from Dynamo.
The more important question would be, do you believe in miracles.
Dynamo Magic polo Trick AMAZING - YouTube

 

[Armoured]

The Milk drinking is not proven beyond any doubt. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who claim miracles when there is another explanation. Especially when the film is all blurry and you can't see everything that is going on. It looked like he spilled most of the milk off the back of the spoon and into the bowl. It was funny how they didn't show the bottom of the bowl clearly. I have seen better magic from Dynamo.
The more important question would be, do you believe in miracles.
]

I do believe in miracles, actually. I just have a problem when people claim that all the unexplainable stuff belongs purely to our side. Don't like that Ganesha video? Google it, there's about a thousand of them out there. Are Some of them fake? Absolutely. Most of them even. But the same can be said about a lot of allegedly Christian miracles too. Like it or not, Christianity isn't the only religion supported by the precise same evidence and arguments that we use. And it irks me when people try to claim that Christianity is somehow more empirically supported than other religions. It isn't. And it is false witness to claim that it is.

 

[stevevw]

I do believe in miracles, actually. I just have a problem when people claim that all the unexplainable stuff belongs purely to our side. Don't like that Ganesha video? Google it, there's about a thousand of them out there. Are Some of them fake? Absolutely. Most of them even. But the same can be said about a lot of allegedly Christian miracles too. Like it or not, Christianity isn't the only religion supported by the precise same evidence and arguments that we use. And it irks me when people try to claim that Christianity is somehow more empirically supported than other religions. It isn't. And it is false witness to claim that it is.

Many years ago there was the traveling medicine man who claimed to have many miracle cures. Then there was the many religious people who claim to have things like miracle wheat or could handle poisonous snakes and claimed to be saved from them by God. People can make all sorts of claims and religion is an easy one to claim supernatural things especially in the days when people were none the wiser. I also believe in miracles but they are not for a side show or to prove God. I think life itself is a miracle and if you look you will see God at work in many ways that are amazing besides the typical miracles we think of.