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How are traditional causes of belief reliable in acquiring knowledge?
- Thread starter poolerboy0077
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A 37 year old woman who has been deaf since birth goes to a meeting. A man put his hands on her ears and prays. After a moment or two the woman starts crying because she can now hear. That is a miracle I watched. I do not expect you to believe it, but I do because I was there.
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Ever seen someone grow back a lost/missing arm or leg?
What about an eye or nose?
Didn't think so. God only heals certain afflictions.
Do people still believe that phoney baloney faith healing con?
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According to the Venn diagram at the site, knowledge is where belief overlaps Truth.
I would put the requirement of functional knowledge in the Truth category rather than the belief category.
When you believe something, there is always a shadow of doubt, because it still may or may not be true. That is the nature of belief.
But when you know something, you no longer "believe it". There is no more room for doubt because you have experienced in some way that that thing you believed in are is just a product of your own thought.
That is where faith and belief differ.
Faith is substance and evidence of what you believed to be true. Knowledge.
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Yes. Which is why knowledge is justified true belief.
Belief based on faith is unjustified belief.
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Ever seen someone grow back a lost/missing arm or leg?
What about an eye or nose?
Didn't think so. God only heals certain afflictions.
Do people still believe that phoney baloney faith healing con?
It comes down to seeing it happen. I do not expect you to believe it. It would be foolish of me to try and convince you unless it could be produced right in front of you. Then it would still be up to you whether you believe a miracle just happened or not.
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If evidence comes along to contradict it, you will not longer be justified in belieiving it.
That is why knowledge is always held provisionally.
No. You are justified in believing it. But that knowledge must, as I say, be held provisionally.
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Are you sure you are using the correct definition of faith?
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen.
Sounds like Faith is evidence of God by experience of God and that is why it is a gift from God and not something we generate ourselves.
Once our belief is corroborated by substance and evidence, then it is no longer just what we think to be true. We know it to be true without a shadow of a doubt.
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Blessed is he who sees and believes, and blessed is he who does not see, yet believes. God is more pleased with the latter because it is faith.
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But your "faith" is entirely that whoever wrote Hebrews (and the rest of the Bible) isn't making it all up.
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I'm curious what you make of the miracle claims others purport to have witnessed around the world in faith system you don't believe in and which are in opposition to the exclusive claims of yours.
It's funny because the parable of doubting Thomas teaches that we should frown on skeptical inquiry, which is absurd. Being skeptical until you investigate further so as to have more concrete evidence should not be discouraged in favor of accepting bald assertions based solely or exclusively on authority. That's asinine.
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Not what the bible says.
Heb 11:1
King James Bible
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
But Aramaic offers more insight:
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Now faith is the conviction concerning those things that are in hope, as if it were these things in action, and the revelation of those things that are unseen;
Faith is a gift from Spirit, not something we muster up.
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I can't judge their claims because I was not there, period. I can develop a bias of doubt because I am in opposition because of opposing systems, but that would be unfair to myself, because I was not there.
That is for believers that have witnessed miracles before as Thomas did. You misapply that teaching with too broad a brush. It's not for you.
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No, that is belief. That is the map, not the territory. All book are as maps
Faith comes from direct experience of the territory. And that is the biblical definition of faith. Experience. Substance, evidence, proof of spiritual reality.
It is theologically, philosophically and biblically sound doctrine much to the chagrin of the "just have faith" (blind belief) dogma.
To believe is good, but to know is better. God wants us to be able to respond with joy and understanding. To gain the knowledge of Truth and be saved from our own death causing ignorance.
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."
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So how can a non-believer ascertain the truth if such claims are inaccessible? That ultimately gets to my problem in the original topic. Tools like skepticism, open debate, formal precision, empirical tests, falsifiability, etc. allow us to challenge our mental and sensory limitations and get at the truth as best we possibly can. By contrast, traditional causes of belieffaith, revelation, dogma, authority, charisma, conventional wisdom, the invigorating glow of subjective certaintydon't seem to lead us away from such cognitive errors. In fact, they seem to make the problem worse.
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