How an Evangelical Creationist Accepted Evolution

[JonFromMinnesota]

Funny - we haven't observed genetic mutations that create positive, additional information in the genome

Define information and how you measure it.
Here are just a few positive genetic mutations we observe in humans: http://bigthink.com/daylight-atheism/evolution-is-still-happening-beneficial-mutations-in-humans

... Just mutations that warp what's already there.

Do you know what a genetic mutation is? Please describe to me in detail what it is and what results from them.

 

[nomadictheist]

Define information and how you measure it.
Here are just a few positive genetic mutations we observe in humans: http://bigthink.com/daylight-atheism/evolution-is-still-happening-beneficial-mutations-in-humans

Interestingly enough, scientists never studied the ancestors of the people cited in this study, so they don't know if this is in fact a "positive mutation" or just lack of a "negative one". The one notable exception being the malaria resistance, which is really only half-positive as this same mutation causes the condition known as "sickle-cell anemia." and even in this case, there was no genetic information added - just a change in what was already there.

Do you know what a genetic mutation is? Please describe to me in detail what it is and what results from them.

A genetic mutation is, in the most simple terms, and change or alteration to the genome of a creature. The results would depend on the portion of the genetic code that changes.

Some observed results in labs: flies having less legs, being born without wings, etc. Creatures being born with an extra leg (note the genetic code for the leg was already there), extra fingers and toes in people, and other such changes. In all of these cases, information was not added to the creature's genome. It was either altered, left out, or duplicated.

None of your examples explain how, for instance, the genome for a single cell mutated to include an entire new cell in that same organism, how that eventually continued to mutate to thousands of millions of cells that included functions that weren't even necessary in a single-celled organism, etc. In fact, arguably, by the rule of "survival of the fittest," single celled organisms should never have evolved further, because many of them are more capable of survival in more extreme environments than most plants and animals.

 

[Loudmouth]

Funny - we haven't observed genetic mutations that create positive, additional information in the genome... Just mutations that warp what's already there.

When we add 40 million mutations to the chimp genome, we get the human genome. Are humans just warped versions of chimps?

 

[nomadictheist]

When we add 40 million mutations to the chimp genome, we get the human genome. Are humans just warped versions of chimps?

Nope. Humans are made in the image of God, which is what sets them apart from the rest. But even if we did believe that, it still wouldn't explain how the chimp got there in the first place.

 

[Loudmouth]

Nope.

Yep.

Humans are made in the image of God,

Evidence, please.

But even if we did believe that, it still wouldn't explain how the chimp got there in the first place.

What is there not to believe? We held the chimp and human genomes next to each other, and we differ by 40 million mutations. It is a fact. If you change the chimp genome at 40 million places, you end up with the human genome. Obviously, changing DNA sequences will not necessarily result in harm.

 

[nomadictheist]

Yep.



Evidence, please.

Genesis 1 - once you believe in God.

As far as the evidence for God, that's all over the world and takes entire books to flesh out. The Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel would be a good place to start, though.

What is there not to believe? We held the chimp and human genomes next to each other, and we differ by 40 million mutations. It is a fact. If you change the chimp genome at 40 million places, you end up with the human genome. Obviously, changing DNA sequences will not necessarily result in harm.

Actually, that's not obvious... That's your conclusion from the fact that an intelligent being could compare the two and see the differences.

I'm sure if I found the right Shakespeare play and held it up against the right Harry Potter novel, I'd be able to figure out a given number of letter substitutions to make one into the other, but that's not evidence that one turned into the other.

 

[Loudmouth]

As far as the evidence for God, that's all over the world and takes entire books to flesh out. The Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel would be a good place to start, though.

Present the evidence and we will see how well it stands up to scrutiny.

Actually, that's not obvious... That's your conclusion from the fact that an intelligent being could compare the two and see the differences.

No, really. It's a fact. Chimps and humans differ by 40 million differences at the DNA level. If DNA sequences can't differ at all without causing harm, then how is it that chimps and humans differ by that many changes?

I'm sure if I found the right Shakespeare play and held it up against the right Harry Potter novel, I'd be able to figure out a given number of letter substitutions to make one into the other, but that's not evidence that one turned into the other.

It completely refutes your claim that changing DNA sequences will always lead to harm.

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

.The Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel would be a good place to start, though.

Not all of us are impressed by an entire book of special pleading and apologetics.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

You could almost supplant "Kramer" with "Nimrod," who at one point was a "mighty hunter before the LORD," but later went apostate.

There is no biblical evidence that Nimrod ever went apostate.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

That which you cannot breed past. Take dogs for example.
You can take a breed to the point of being infertile with
some other dogs, but they will never be a seperate species.
You will untlmately reach a limit past which you cannot
have them reproduce at all.

IF a breed of dog were to be bred by man that could not breed with other breeds of dogs, would you concede it was a seperate species?

 

[pat34lee]

Do you really want to make God look like a deceiver?

As I said, those were just possibilities. Maybe not good ones.
The point is that unless it can be proven how and when they
got there, you have theories, and specifically, theories that
exclude the possibility that they were created.

 

[pat34lee]

IF a breed of dog were to be bred by man that could not breed with other breeds of dogs, would you concede it was a separate species?

Ring species are not separate kinds. They are examples of lost
genetic variability, not evolution. Loss leads to extinction, not
new forms of life.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

After college, Kramer went to seminary to study ways to read Genesis through a different lens, taking the view that you can reconcile faith and science without forcing the two to cohere line by line. By 2009, he had done a complete reversal: “[W]e should proceed with extreme caution when trying to understand science through the writings of an ancient culture that looked at life poetically, not scientifically,” he wrote in an op-ed supporting evolution from a Christian perspective. In 2014, Kramer became managing editor at BioLogos. This year, he started a blog called “The Evolving Evangelical.” Today he still considers himself a creationist—just one who happens to embrace evolution and who helps others do the same.

“We call ourselves creationists, and we’re stubborn about that,” says Kramer of BioLogos. “We purposely live between the cultural categories, because we disagree with the way in which the lines are drawn.” If you asked Kramer whether he believes in the words of Genesis or the words of Origin of Species, in the biblical God or the science of evolution, he knows what he would choose. It’s the same answer he’d give if you asked him whether the recent Homo naledi discovery is scientific or divine, or whether his 2-year-old daughter Josephine is a gift from God or nature. “I’d say both,” he says. “One hundred percent both.”

Hello Es-s. Nice to see you.

 

[pat34lee]

When we add 40 million mutations to the chimp genome, we get the human genome. Are humans just warped versions of chimps?

Add 40 million mutations and you have another extinct species.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Add 40 million mutations and you have another extinct species.

Not if, along the way, natural selection eliminates the fatal or harmful ones, leaving only the neutral and beneficial ones.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Ring species are not separate kinds. They are examples of lost
genetic variability, not evolution. Loss leads to extinction, not new forms of life.

I didn't get an answer to my question out of this. Let me repeat it, in case you have already forgotten the question. If a dog were to be bred to be so different that it could not breed with other dogs, would you concede then that it was a different species? (You don't have to concede that such a breeding would be possible, in order to answer the question).

As for your assertions, they are wrong, of course.

 

[sfs]

Funny - we haven't observed genetic mutations that create positive, additional information in the genome... Just mutations that warp what's already there.

Maybe you haven't, but I have.

 

[The Cadet]

Funny - we haven't observed genetic mutations that create positive, additional information in the genome... Just mutations that warp what's already there.

Care to define "positive" and "information"? It's trivial to increase the information content of the genome through replication and modification, and demonstrating that some of these increases in information content are positive is similarly trivial.

 

[essentialsaltes]

"When we add 40 million mutations to the chimp genome, we get the human genome. Are humans just warped versions of chimps?"

Nope. Humans are made in the image of God, which is what sets them apart from the rest. But even if we did believe that, it still wouldn't explain how the chimp got there in the first place.

When we add 40 million mutations to the human genome, we get the chimp genome. Are chimps just warped versions of humans?

 

[AV1611VET]

When we add 40 million mutations to the chimp genome, we get the human genome.

If we take away 40,000,000 mutations from the human genome, do we get the chimp genome?