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How an Evangelical Creationist Accepted Evolution

Hoghead1

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Gen. 1 does claim that we are made in the image of God. But Gen. 2, a wholly different creation account form a different, earlier time in Israeli history, does not make that lofty claim, saying instead that we are created out of dust. The interesting question then arises is to what God's relationship is to chimps and also dust. Does God look like a chimp or dust? My answer is that the universe is the body of God. Therefore, everything in the universe is part of God and then looks like God and therefore nothing looks like God, as nothing can look like the whole.
 
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Hoghead1

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I would say so, Paul of Eugene. However, biologists would probably argue otherwise. After all, ther are many very small dogs that cannot be bread with larger ones. However, they are still considered all of the same species. And then there are species that can interbreed, for example, dogs and wolves. the problem, which many miss, is that there is no clear0cut definition of what a species is.
 
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essentialsaltes

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If we take away 40,000,000 mutations from the human genome, do we get the chimp genome?

It's not clear to me what you mean by 'Taking away a mutation'. Taking away a mutation would change the DNA... so it's just like adding a mutation. So you can add 40,000,000 mutations to the chimp genome and get the human genome. Or you can add 40,000,000 mutations to the human genome to get the chimp genome. The mutations would be 'the opposite' of each other. If C --> A in a particular spot going from one to the other, then A --> C going the other way around.
 
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AV1611VET

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It's not clear to me what you mean by 'Taking away a mutation'. Taking away a mutation would change the DNA... so it's just like adding a mutation. So you can add 40,000,000 mutations to the chimp genome and get the human genome. Or you can add 40,000,000 mutations to the human genome to get the chimp genome. The mutations would be 'the opposite' of each other. If C --> A in a particular spot going from one to the other, then A --> C going the other way around.
Okay, thanks.
 
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Loudmouth

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As I said, those were just possibilities. Maybe not good ones.
The point is that unless it can be proven how and when they
got there, you have theories, and specifically, theories that
exclude the possibility that they were created.

Theories don't exclude possibilities. In fact, all other possibilities are part of the null hypothesis. Scientists put just as much effort into disproving their theories as they do proving them (beyond a reasonable doubt).

What I think you fail to understand is just how much extra effort it would take to make ERV's and other genetic markers to look like they evolved. It isn't simply a matter of copying an ERV from one species and throwing it in anywhere in the other species. For example, the retroviral genome has a feature at either end called an LTR which stands for long terminal repeat. They are like bookends.

retrovirus.jpg



When the virus inserts it's genome into the host genome, it copies one LTR to make the other LTR. This means that the LTR's have identical sequence at the time when the retrovirus becomes and ERV.

From the distribution of a specific ERV among species we can predict how long an ERV has been in a lineage. Here is the phylogeny for Hominidae.

nature09687-f1.2.jpg


If an ERV is found at the same location in orangutans, chimps, gorillas, and humans, then that ERV had to insert before orangutans branched off. If an ERV is shared just by chimps and humans, then the insertion had to happen much more recently.

Using the theory of evolution we can determine how long an ERV has been part of a lineage. If that prediction is correct, then older ERV's should have accumulated more mutations than younger ERV's. We can determine this by comparing the LTR's. Since we know that they were identical at the time of insertion, we can compare the two LTR's to see how many mutations have accumulated.

So what happens when we compare the number of mutations from the predicted age of the insertion? They match up. ERV's that are shared by a large number of primate species have more mutations in the LTR's than ERV's that are shared by relatively few primate species. This is the pattern we would expect from evolution.

In order for this to be the product of separate creation events, the designer would need to go through and meticulously change the LTR's so that they produce the same phylogeny. The designer would need to do this for hundreds of thousands of ERV's, making sure that they produce the same phylogeny. A designer could give baboons and humans the same ERV with identical LTR's while give all other primates an ERV at the same location but with very different LTR's. There is absolutely nothing stopping a designer from doing so. So why would a designer produce a fake phylogeny when there is no reason to do so?
 
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pat34lee

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Not if, along the way, natural selection eliminates the fatal or harmful ones, leaving only the neutral and beneficial ones.

What good will those two or three do if the rest kill them off?

Natural selection weeds out the good mutations also, if there
were any to speak of.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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What good will those two or three do if the rest kill them off?

Natural selection weeds out the good mutations also, if there
were any to speak of.

By definition, a "good" mutation in the context of the discussion of evolution is one that assists, rather than hinders, the reproduction of descendants. Therefore your statement is in error. If there is no assistance in reproduction, it isn't a "good" mutation.
 
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AV1611VET

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What is 'perfect DNA?'
That would be Adam's DNA.

You wonder why the world is "twisted" today?

Look at DNA.

It is a twisted double helix.

Perhaps there was a time when it wasn't twisted?
 
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mikeirvan

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I think we need to be careful when making statements against evolution. I'm a creationist myself, and not afraid to tell evolutionists and atheists that. I see no proof of evolution. I get in arguments with evolutionists about this all the time. They throw "evidence" at me all the time, but to me it's not good enough evidence to prove their case. I take Faith Bible Institute class at my local church. It's an awesome class, you should see if it's offered somewhere in your area. John Yates mentioned something in yesterday's video which was interesting: Science is all about cause and effect. I remember learning that years ago: everything has a cause and effect. Which means scientifically, evolution can't exist! Something had to happen to cause even the one celled organism the evolutionists believe we evolved from to show up. something caused life to exist in the first place. Everything we see was created by something else, and any hint of evolution we see is because someone else did it. All the evidence I see makes me believe we were created. It's like the age-old question in a sense: what came first: the chicken or the egg. cause and effect. If atheists want to throw scientific logic at you for why they can't see God as being real, throw that at them. ask them about cause and effect then if evolution is truly why we are here.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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I think we need to be careful when making statements against evolution. I'm a creationist myself, and not afraid to tell evolutionists and atheists that. I see no proof of evolution. I get in arguments with evolutionists about this all the time. They throw "evidence" at me all the time, but to me it's not good enough evidence to prove their case. I take Faith Bible Institute class at my local church. It's an awesome class, you should see if it's offered somewhere in your area. John Yates mentioned something in yesterday's video which was interesting: Science is all about cause and effect. I remember learning that years ago: everything has a cause and effect. Which means scientifically, evolution can't exist! Something had to happen to cause even the one celled organism the evolutionists believe we evolved from to show up. something caused life to exist in the first place. Everything we see was created by something else, and any hint of evolution we see is because someone else did it. All the evidence I see makes me believe we were created. It's like the age-old question in a sense: what came first: the chicken or the egg. cause and effect. If atheists want to throw scientific logic at you for why they can't see God as being real, throw that at them. ask them about cause and effect then if evolution is truly why we are here.

The theory of evolution does NOT deal with how life started, but only how life changed and evolved after life arrived. As for seeing "no proof" of evolution, that is a matter of opinion. You do know that scientists present a lot of things that they CLAIM are proof. . . . so what you are really saying is you don't accept that which is offered.
 
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The Cadet

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something caused life to exist in the first place.
Yep, and we're still working on the precise answer to that, although numerous hypotheses have been floated to explain the origin of the first simple cells.

That said, the theory of evolution would not be falsified by the first lifeform being placed there by a supernatural being, any more than this would prove the earth to be 6,000 years old or the earth to be stationary.
 
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Hoghead1

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OK< Paul, but just how much scientific evidence can you muster for the creationist idea that God created the world in six days? It's true nobody directly observed the Big Bang, and it is also true that nobody directly observed God creating in six days. Your approach depends very much on extra-scientific speculation.
Next, why do you automatically assume that evolution is incompatible with belief in God? Frankly, I don't see how evolution could occur without God, as evolution is the birth of the genuinely novel and that means some transcendent creative imagination is continually ushering in new creative potentials. The way I see it, creation is God's own self-evolution from unconsciousness and mere potentiality into self-consciousness and self-actualization. And I think t is important to note that such a view is to be found in the Christian mystical literature long before Darwin came along.
 
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Hoghead1

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If you are gong purely on the notion that it is all survival of the fittest, then natural selection dos not weed out the good ones. Rather, the opposite is the case. Now, if you are going on the assumption that evolution is the advance toward the more complex and sensitive, then, yes, the higher you are on the scale the more vulnerable. As I have said, if we had a nuclear holocaust, we'd be out of business, whereas the cockroaches would have a field day.
 
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AV1611VET

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I think we need to be careful when making statements against evolution. I'm a creationist myself, and not afraid to tell evolutionists and atheists that. I see no proof of evolution. I get in arguments with evolutionists about this all the time. They throw "evidence" at me all the time, but to me it's not good enough evidence to prove their case. I take Faith Bible Institute class at my local church. It's an awesome class, you should see if it's offered somewhere in your area. John Yates mentioned something in yesterday's video which was interesting: Science is all about cause and effect. I remember learning that years ago: everything has a cause and effect. Which means scientifically, evolution can't exist! Something had to happen to cause even the one celled organism the evolutionists believe we evolved from to show up. something caused life to exist in the first place. Everything we see was created by something else, and any hint of evolution we see is because someone else did it. All the evidence I see makes me believe we were created. It's like the age-old question in a sense: what came first: the chicken or the egg. cause and effect. If atheists want to throw scientific logic at you for why they can't see God as being real, throw that at them. ask them about cause and effect then if evolution is truly why we are here.
Amen, brother! :)
 
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AV1611VET

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So, another creationist fell for the bluff of naturalist fairytales...
Apparently not realizing he now believes in miracles from data corruption...
I like your avatar, Hieronymus.

Do you realize scientists sent out the Aricebo message, showing the earth as the third planet from the sun in a solar system consisting of only nine planets?

No wonder they can't reply, they're still searching for us! :eek:
 
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