Hostility between LDS and mainstream Christians

[He is the way]

Jesus Christ is no longer the same as God the Father. Jesus gave up His sameness with God to become human to save us---He retains His divinity, how, it does not say, He is still God, but He forever retains His humanity--of which God the Father has never had and never will. You can not seem to grasp that. He voluntarily gave up that sameness to save us---His torture was not merely of the flesh, but of His whole being for He retains that humanity forever-that is how great His love for us is.

This is in the Bible? I think many of your beliefs are not really there.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through unity. Athanasian Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through co-substantiation.

Please explain "through unity".

 

[Marvin Knox]

We believe that in order to be saved one should keep the commandments. The Bible states:................

Does keeping His commandments in order to to be saved include temple rituals and tithing?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Please explain "through unity".

The Father, Son, and Spirit are three different and distinct persons. But they are all ONE God together, because they all have the ONE perfect love, will, grace, mercy, justice, etc. The Son always acts perfectly with the will of the Father. If a person was to heed the promptings of the Spirit, they're also heeding the promptings of the Father. The mercy of the Father is the same mercy of the Son. To honor the Father is to also honor the Son-- you just physically can't honor or obey the Son without also honoring and obeying the Father. The Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE. Three different persons, but ONE God.

 

[mmksparbud]

This is in the Bible? I think many of your beliefs are not really there.

You yourself has said Jesus has a human body after His resurrection--it is in the bible. It is your believe in JS that leads you to believe God the Father was human--the bible is clear--God was never human, God the Father always was, God the Son and Him were one from everlasting-----Jesus became human to save us Jesus became lower than the angels to save us and retained that humanity, He kept the scars--all in the bible--if you read it without the lies of JS for yourself--you would know.

Num_23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Psa_8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Heb_2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb_2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Psa_41:13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
Psa_90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Psa_93:2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh_20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

 

[He is the way]

The quote from Philipians 2:5-6 given by our Mormon friend must be read and understood in light of the incarnation, whereby we do say that it is not robbery that He be considered equal with God the Father (as He truly is, being of one essence with God the Father and with the Holy Spirit in the uncreated and undivided Holy Trinity), which further underlines the amazing reality of the incarnation, about which we say things like the following (from the Nativity liturgy of the Coptic Orthodox Church):

"O Thou, THE BEING throughout all time, have come to us on Earth / You have come into the womb of the virgin / You the infinite, You the infinite, being God, did not consider equality with God a thing to be held onto / but released it and emptied Yourself / and took the form of a servant / and blessed my nature in Yourself / and fulfilled Your law on my behalf / You have shown me the rising up from my fall / You have given release to those who were bound in Hades / You have lifted the curse of the law / You have abolished sin in the flesh / You have shown me the power of Your authority / You gave sight to the blind / You raised the dead from the tombs / You established nature by the word ..."

+++

The connection between the quoted portion of the prayer and the quoted portion of the scriptures should be clear: Our Lord Jesus Christ, being God in all ways and from all time, did not consider His equality a thing to be held on to to the exception of coming to us in the form of a servant, which He did by His incarnation and birth from the holy Theotokos St. Mary, blessing and sanctifying our nature in the process just as He has redeemed all mankind and the entire creation by His life, preaching, crucifixion, death, and resurrection.

This is an entirely different message and understanding than the very strange "He has to have this type of body or else they're not equal" idea that we are getting from our Mormon friend, which seems to be based on what would best serve Mormon philosophy rather than saying anything about the nature of God. Perhaps it is yelling once again into the void, but I feel it appropriate here to reiterate that the equality of the Persons of the Holy Trinity is precisely in this equality of their nature -- that they are of one and the same nature (or essence, or substance -- these are synonyms): the divine nature. It is in no way a statement of form, but of nature.

(This is why when Mormons keep saying "They can't be the same substance if they don't both have bodies", it elicits an immediate no. Saying such things knows that you are not understanding the basics of Christian theology, but instead substituting your Mormon theology whenever you run up against something you don't understand, rather than accepting what you are given by people who actually do use this terminology.)

We believe that Jesus is one with God the Father and is indeed equal with Him. That being said we can't know God unless we keep the commandments:
(New Testament | 1 John 2:3 - 4)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Perhaps I don't understand the Creeds because of their wording. The Nicene Creed of 381 said nothing about the Father and the Son being of the same nature, only of the same substance. There has been some controversy over the creed from the late 6th century and changes have been made. Perhaps it is understood differently today than it was when it was written. I don't see it as being entirely Biblical.

 

[twin.spin]

You misunderstand the scripture. It means that we can not be saved by works alone no matter what we do. Without the atonement there would be NO salvation. We can not earn our salvation. Neither are we saved without works. The Bible also makes that abundantly clear.

I understand English quite well.

LDS understanding of "atonement" is drastically different from Biblical Christianity in several ways.

1) "Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ redeems all people from the effects of the Fall. All people who have ever lived on the earth and who ever will live on the earth will be resurrected and brought back into the presence of God to be judged" (True to the Faith, p. 18)

2) Boyd K. Packer's parable on atonement of the creditor and debtor. (Gospel Principles.)​

Speaking of failing to not understand Scripture, not only did you ignore the fact that it was those closet resembling "after all you can do" (the goats) are those that Jesus curses to outer darkness, but that context of your latest drum beat of James 2:24 has to be taken into context to properly interpret it. Especially enlightening is verse 18:

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” ​

These words plainly spell out that James is talking about, not how God recognizes who believes and who doesn’t, but how we recognize faith each other. It’s talking about how we show, or make apparent, our faith to other people.

What is crucial to remember is that, although faith always produces works and thus faith and works go together, they are two separate things. It’s a matter of cause and effect. Spirit-worked faith in Jesus’ sacrifice for us is the cause of our salvation, while works are the result of our being saved.

In verse 23 James quotes Genesis 15:6 – the significant verse that tells us when God justified Abraham (declared him righteous). By quoting Genesis 15:6 James is emphasizing that God had already declared Abraham righteous decades before his sacrifice of Isaac. In other words, God didn’t wait until Abraham had done this work to declare him righteous. He justified Abraham when he first believed decades before.

The bottom line is that James agrees with the rest of the Bible. God declares us righteous or justifies us, on the basis of faith alone.

 

[Radagast]

Christ was not created in any sense -- neither ex nihilo, nor from pre-existing matter of any kind.

I don't see the point of this thread. Mormons have their beliefs; we have ours.

Since Mormons rely on a number of 19th century writings (Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, etc.) that Christians do not accept, debate seems to me pretty much fruitless.

 

[dzheremi]

I agree, Radagast, but I also think that we must always be ready to provide an account for the hope that is within us, so it's still good to sort things out, so that people who aren't Mormons (or who otherwise might come across this thread) can at least see that people do have responses to Mormon claims.

 

[mmksparbud]

I don't see the point of this thread. Mormons have their beliefs; we have ours.

Since Mormons rely on a number of 19th century writings (Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, etc.) that Christians do not accept, debate seems to me pretty much fruitless.

LOL---maybe----but we do what we can to explain our unique perceptions of the gospel as we each see it---and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.

 

[twin.spin]

I agree, Radagast, but I also think that we must always be ready to provide an account for the hope that is within us, so it's still good to sort things out, so that people who aren't Mormons (or who otherwise might come across this thread) can at least see that people do have responses to Mormon claims.

That is the same encouragement that is found in Titus 1:9

"He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught,
so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it." NIV​

Mormons oppose sound doctrine as it has been taught in favor multiple beliefs that aren't Biblically found no where else other than LDS theology.

 

[Rescued One]

"Don't understand" is not the same as "Don't teach Bible truth about the New Birth". There is great "understanding" among Mormons, even if it is misunderstanding.

It would appear that the Mormon concept of the New Birth is identical to the Roman Catholic concept of baptismal regeneration, and that salvation is the result of grace + obedience to laws and ordinances (similar to obedience to sacraments).


To Be Born Again - ensign

Why do people keep talking about Catholicism in a thread about Mormonism?

 

[Rescued One]

I don't see the point of this thread. Mormons have their beliefs; we have ours.

Since Mormons rely on a number of 19th century writings (Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, etc.) that Christians do not accept, debate seems to me pretty much fruitless.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. We have a right to talk about it. Mormons have a right to talk about it, too.

 

[Rescued One]

Does keeping His commandments in order to to be saved include temple rituals and tithing?

Absolutely and more.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Perhaps I don't understand the Creeds because of their wording. The Nicene Creed of 381 said nothing about the Father and the Son being of the same nature, only of the same substance. There has been some controversy over the creed from the late 6th century and changes have been made. Perhaps it is understood differently today than it was when it was written. I don't see it as being entirely Biblical.

Hello dear Mormon friend. Well I can tell by the way you wrote consubstantial you don't understand the terms usage. Sub-stance= under-stand= stand-under. It's a more real structure that everything we can detect with our senses depends on to exist. It goes, and everything we are able to observe goes with it. The Trinity is three divine persons one in being. For God, that is consubstantial that is essence and the nature of God. That is not the case for created beings. Uncreated creator, have always been (eternal nature exclusive to God). Only God can say "I have always been". These are, in as much as we can know, the one substance that all three divine persons are. This isn't the Trinity of the Mormon faith. The creator of all that is, that can say " I have always been" for Mormons, has not been resolved by their theologians. One of whom I was able to have an honest exchange of ideas.. Mormon Trinitarian theology is an infinite regress that Mormon theologians haven't resolved.

That unresolved theology is at the core of what bothers me when Mormons discuss the Trinity as the same Trinity I believe in. Same words but not of the same substance at all. The Mormon Trinity of beings are not one in being and can't be one being any more than two humans can be, theologically speaking.
Having one will among three persons requires some kind of.....yeah I'll say it, ontological oneness. A unified will theologically requires a oneness that Mormon theology hasn't posited. So, theologically we can't really talk about Jesus as if we are talking about the same person. Theologically they are two persons with names that sound the same.

 

[Rescued One]

We believe that Jesus is one with God the Father and is indeed equal with Him...

“Jesus perfected his life and became our Christ. Priceless blood of a god was shed, and he became our Savior; his perfected life was given, and he became our Redeemer; his atonement for us made possible our return to our Heavenly Father, and yet how thoughtless, how unappreciative are most beneficiaries! Ingratitude is a sin of the ages.”
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Spencer W. Kimball, 2006.

See Chapter 1, page 6 at this link:
https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/36500_eng.pdf?lang=eng

"Jesus kept the commandments of his Father and thereby worked out his own salvation and also set an example as to the way and the means whereby all men may be saved."
Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, Vol.4, p.434

“The statement of our Lord that he could do nothing but what he had seen the Father do, means simply that it had been revealed to him what his Father had done. Without doubt, Jesus came into the world subject to the same condition as was required of each of us-he forgot everything, and he had to grow from grace to grace. His forgetting, or having his former knowledge taken away, would be requisite just as it is in the case of each of us, to complete the present temporal existence.”
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:32

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: “I believe firmly that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. He taught this doctrine to his disciples. He did not teach them that he was the Son of the Holy Ghost, but the Son of the Father. Truly, all things are done by the power of the Holy Ghost. It was through this power that Jesus was brought into this world, but not as the Son of the Holy Ghost, but the Son of God. Jesus is greater than the Holy Spirit, which is subject unto him, but his Father is greater than he! He has said it. Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!” (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:18).
Book of Mormon Student Manual, 1989, Alma 7:10, p.74

God the Father is the Supreme Being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is the ultimate Creator, Ruler, and Preserver of all things. He is perfect, has all power, and knows all things. He “has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (D&C 130:22).
“God the Father,” True to the Faith (2004)
God the Father

 

[Micah888]

Why do people keep talking about Catholicism in a thread about Mormonism?

Because both claim to be the one *true Church* and both are mistaken.

 

[Micah888]

I don't see the point of this thread. Mormons have their beliefs; we have ours

Correct. And neither side will change their views after any amount of discussion.

 

[He is the way]

Does keeping His commandments in order to to be saved include temple rituals and tithing?

What does saved mean to you? If it means being resurrected the answer is no. The Bible states:
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:22)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
However there are stipulations about being in God's kingdom. One of the ordinances performed in the temple is baptism. We believe that baptism is required in order to enter into the kingdom of God:
(New Testament | John 3:3 - 5)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[He is the way]

You yourself has said Jesus has a human body after His resurrection--it is in the bible. It is your believe in JS that leads you to believe God the Father was human--the bible is clear--God was never human, God the Father always was, God the Son and Him were one from everlasting-----Jesus became human to save us Jesus became lower than the angels to save us and retained that humanity, He kept the scars--all in the bible--if you read it without the lies of JS for yourself--you would know.

Num_23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Psa_8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Heb_2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb_2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Psa_41:13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
Psa_90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Psa_93:2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh_20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Jesus has a spiritual resurrected body of flesh and bone. It is not what I would call a human body like the ones we have now. Jesus has always been God, however He had a body like ours. The Bible is not clear whether the Father also has a spiritual resurrected body. In fact the Bible is not clear about many things nor do we need to understand those things completely to enter into God's kingdom. We do need to be as little children to enter His kingdom:

(New Testament | Mark 10:14 - 15)

14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.