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Featured Hostility between LDS and mainstream Christians

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Catholic4Jesus, Apr 28, 2018.

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  1. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Water baptism is fine and all but in my case I had to wait a couple months to be baptized because my church does baptisms once every few months. Do you think the Holy Spirit waited to begin working in me? Lol no way I received the Spirit long before I was baptized with water. Don’t get me wrong water baptism is a great ceremony but it’s the baptism of the Spirit that really matters. You don’t need a ceremony to receive the Holy Spirit. All you need is Love for God.
     
  2. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    God is not a man. He does not have a human body:
    (Old Testament | Numbers 23:19)

    19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
     
  3. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    Did the Father always exist as God the Father, or did he progress?
    Did the Son always exist as God the Son, or did he progress?
    Did the Spirit always exist as God the Spirit, or did he progress?

    Are they 100% eternal as God?
     
  4. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    What happened to his body then? Is it not lds theology that God was once a man, progressed to godhood, and set the example for lds to do the same?
     
  5. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    What does the Bible say?:
    (New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:34 - 58)

    34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
    35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
    37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
    38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
    40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
    48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
    56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
    57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

    Resurrected bodies have been CHANGED.
    Jesus is our example:
    (New Testament | Philippians 2:5 - 6)

    5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    (New Testament | Philippians 3:14 - 15)

    14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
    15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
     
  6. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    He is not a man--period!! Never was!! Jesus was never in any way human before the incarnation--did you not read what the scriptures say? He was made lower than the angels to become human. He and the Father were one before thst0--neither of them ever human -- the scriptures refute JS assertions that God was human before He became God---Jesus was never human before He became man---JS had it totally backwards.
     
  7. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    So you say.

    I am grateful for the Savior's love
    He gave us blessings from above
    I am grateful for what He has done
    I know He is the only begotten Son
    I am grateful for what He has made
    I am grateful for the lives He saved
    He gave us commandments of love and grace
    To help all of the human race
    As we travel through this life
    of hardship woe and sacrifice
    May we remember the only one
    That pleased the Father and was His Son.
    Every day to Him give praise
    And walk as He walked all our days
    That we may be one with them as they are one
    And be perfected by the Son
     
  8. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    How is that a reply? Everyone can quote hymns or poems or whatever that is. It would be better to reply directly to the scriptures provided which challenge the Mormon idea of God.
     
  9. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    As God?
     
  10. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    Jesus quoted scripture and they still would not believe Him:
    (New Testament | John 10:31 - 39)

    31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
    32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
    33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
    34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
    35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
    36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
    37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
    38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
    39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
     
  11. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    But, according to LDS, was He once a man or has He always been God?

    Therein lies the crux of the matter.

    Only that which has always existed as fully God is God.

    Anything which progressed from a lower estate to Godhood is a demi-god at best.

    You and Jane can play games until the cows come home to Utah.

    But the fact is that only that which is eternally existent, exactly as it has always been, can be considered God in the most straight forward definition of the word "God".
     
  12. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

    +988
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    Let's look at the example of Christ:
    Before the earth was made: 100% God in Goodness, righteousness, justice, etc
    After being born of Mary: still 100% God in Goodness, righteousness, justice, etc. But also having a flawed human body that hungers, feels pain, etc. He also experiences these things and leads by example, and exercise compassion and His mission.
    After resurrection: still 100% God in Goodness, righteousness, justice, etc. But also now a resurrected glorified body and has ascended to His Father. He is more than before.

    Throughout this whole time, you always have 100% God in Goodness, righteousness, justice, etc. But there's changing of form and growing that way.

    Does that make sense?

    There are two non-doctrinal speculative quotes along the lines that the Father once lived a mortal life. These speculative quotes aren't actually taught or discussed in actual LDS church, and any LDS person is free to disagree/agree/not-care/etc with them. Regardless of any speculations, either way He's always existed (there's difference on the view of man vs Creedal views).
    Do you consider Christ a demi-god for having lived a mortal life?
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2018
  13. Micah888

    Micah888 Well-Known Member

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    You forgot to mention "essence" (also spoken of as "being of one substance with the Father"). Naturally, that is non-material and totally divine.

    But those you have listed are attributes, and Jesus is God in essence, just like the Father and the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 1:8-12).
     
  14. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    Why would I mention that? Scripture doesn't say that.
     
  15. Micah888

    Micah888 Well-Known Member

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    Scripture does not use those exact words, but that does not mean that Scripture does not teach that Jesus is actually God. Please note this carefully:

    But unto the Son he [God the Father] saith, Thy throne, O God [Theos], is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God [Theos], even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (Heb 1:8,9)

    If this one passage does not establish that Jesus is God in essence as well as attributes, then there is no need to read the Bible.
     
  16. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    Scripture doesn't talk one ounce about God's essence.
     
  17. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    Matter has always existed and it is not God. Jesus went from a higher estate to a lower estate then back to a higher estate and He is not a demi-god.
     
  18. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    Neither does scripture mention the substance of God but the Nicene Creed does. They say Joseph Smith made things up, but many of their beliefs are not Biblical. Where did the belief come from that God created the universe out of nothing? It is not in the Bible.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2018
  19. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    No---so says scripture! It is too bad you do not let it determine your believes instead of JS.
     
  20. Micah888

    Micah888 Well-Known Member

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    It is in the Bible. Check Hebrews 11:3: Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    Furthermore Genesis 1 plainly teaches that. Every time "God said" He created something out of nothing. So if you don't even believe this fundamental fact, you don't really believe the Bible.

    3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

    9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

    11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

    14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

    20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

    24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

     
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