The Liturgist

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I want to wish all my friends in Traditional Theology on the Julian, Revised Julian and Coptic calendars, such as @dzheremi, @prodromos , @HTacianas , @PsaltiChrysostom and many others, a blessed Palm Sunday, and to all my friends on the Gregorian calendar, including but by no means limited to @MarkRohfrietsch @ViaCrucis @chevyontheriver @concretecamper @pdudgeon @Jipsah @Carl Emerson @hedrick @Paidiske @Ain't Zwinglian @PloverWing @Andrewn @Shane R and many others, Christos Anesti!

And should I be unable next weekend to say Christos Anesti to my Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Ukrainian Greek Catholic friends, and anyone else on the Julian, Coptic or Revised Julian calendars, I would beg your pardon and hope this message will serve instead.

Christ is Risen!

I wish a blessed Holy Week, Paschal Feast and Bright Week to everyone.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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He is risin indeed! Blessings to you and all here at CF!!
And Frm Pastor Matt Fenn and Myself.
1681059964303.jpeg
 
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fhansen

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I want to wish all my friends in Traditional Theology on the Julian, Revised Julian and Coptic calendars, such as @dzheremi, @prodromos , @HTacianas , @PsaltiChrysostom and many others, a blessed Palm Sunday, and to all my friends on the Gregorian calendar, including but by no means limited to @MarkRohfrietsch @ViaCrucis @chevyontheriver @concretecamper @pdudgeon @Jipsah @Carl Emerson @hedrick @Paidiske @Ain't Zwinglian @PloverWing and many others, Christos Anesti!

And should I be unable next weekend to say Christos Anesti to my Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Ukrainian Greek Catholic friends, and anyone else on the Julian, Coptic or Revised Julian calendars, I would beg your pardon and hope this message will serve instead.

Christ is Risen!

I wish a blessed Holy Week, Paschal Feast and Bright Week to everyone.

Thank you-and Happy Easter to yourself and all here on the forums! And like Father said at Mass today-it's about the Lamb, not the rabbit :). Thought that was cute, or clever, etc.
 
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Paidiske

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He is risen indeed! Alleluia!

(And the clergy are prone, as the saying goes. I hope everyone who's been run off their feet last week, has some time to rest and recover this week!)
 
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The Liturgist

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He is risen indeed! Alleluia!

(And the clergy are prone, as the saying goes. I hope everyone who's been run off their feet last week, has some time to rest and recover this week!)
Eastern Orthodox priests don’t really catch a break until after St. Thomas Sunday, since there are daily liturgies during Bright Week, although monastic communities have things a bit easier in that during Bright Week, the Hours are each replaced by an extremely short and simple prayer about the length of the Preces from the Anglican Divine Office, or a longer Anglican collect.
 
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The Liturgist

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By the way @Paidiske I just realized that there exists a temptation to resent Reformed Presbyterian ministers (known as Covenanting Presbyterians, who use A Capella exclusive psalmody) and those of other denominations which do not celebrate Easter or any specific liturgical calendar, which we must of course resist. The extreme added workload of Holy Week is the price for liturgical beauty, just as the Lenten fast prepares us for the Paschal feast.
 
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Paidiske

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I don't resent my colleagues who don't have the same liturgical workload; but I do sometimes resent their attitude about it. (I was too grumpy to reply to the ecumenical colleague who organised a gathering on Maundy Thursday, for example).
 
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I don't resent my colleagues who don't have the same liturgical workload; but I do sometimes resent their attitude about it. (I was too grumpy to reply to the ecumenical colleague who organised a gathering on Maundy Thursday, for example).

Forgive me but I am having a hard time seeing the point of organizing an ecumenical gathering at any time during the Paschal Triduum or Holy Week as a whole (since many churches have daily services during Holy Week, and Eastern Catholics, for example, will have Bridegroom Matins on the evenings of Palm Sunday, Holy Monday, Holy Tuesday, and Holy Wednesday, and with the exception of the Ukrainian Greek Catholics, Belarussian Greek Catholics, Russian Greek Catholics and a few others, the majority are on the Gregorian Calendar, as are many of the Oriental Orthodox, and frequently, when Gregorian Easter occurs late in April, the two calendars agree on the date of Easter. So naturally clergy are going to be super-busy during Holy Week, and having an ecumenical gathering during either Gregorian or Julian Holy Week will at a minimum exclude some clergy.

Frankly, scheduling an ecumenical gathering during Holy Week strikes me as re-enacting the Great Schism of 1054 and the Fourth Crusade in Pantomime, in that it comes across as almost passive aggressive.

There are of course a few exceptions to this. For example, I first met my retired friend Fr. Steven Dean of the Episcopal Church at a joint Methodist-Episcopal ecumenical service on Holy Friday, where I also met Rev. Lou Fry of the UMC, who was also a good friend - he was the pastor of a beautiful Methodist church that the congregation built with their own labor in the 1970s when they outgrew their historic 1920s building (which sadly became a performing arts center, unlike its counterpart in the adjacent town, where I was baptized, which was built in the late 1950s* to replace another 1920s church albeit of simpler architecture, and that original church was sold to the Baptists, who still operate it.

So basically if two churches closely related, for example, two Orthodox churches, or two Mainline Protestant churches, or two traditional Protestant churches that are not rivals, like say, WELS and ACNA, but rather allies, like LCMS and AALC, or the PCA and OPC, have a combined ecumenical service, particularly where they might not be able to fill their individual churches, for example, the Good Friday service, which was not well attended compared to Maundy Thursday, that can make a lot of sense and also help to connect the larger Christian community and reduce the workload for clergy.

*The late 1950s parish where I was baptized has particularly gorgeous stained glass windows which combined with the fairly high church wording used for Holy Communion so as to convince me, even though this was not Methodist doctrine, which on this issue is undefined, of the Real Presence, by the time I was seven, and also made me a lifelong iconodule, to the point that when I visited an SDA church to sing in a Christmas program with some other children including the daughter of the Armenian family that I grew uo in close proximity with, which my mother had compiled from certain classic hymns, I, noticing the lack of a cross, naively offered to their extremely friendly pastors to make one for them, and fortunately they were gracious rather than polemical in their reply.

As far as I am aware, the old parish church sold to the Baptists has stained glass windows but not of the same iconographic calibre; specifically the 1950s church uses a style of stained glass windows on the eastern wall, which faces the liturgical North, which uses elements like halos in a manner that is very Byzantine, while retaining a Renaissance-influenced realism in the faces and composition, while those along the aisle on the liturgical south wall in a less realistic style more evocative of Western iconography from the 10th-15th centuries.
 
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Paidiske

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Forgive me but I am having a hard time seeing the point of organizing an ecumenical gathering at any time during the Paschal Triduum or Holy Week as a whole...

Frankly, scheduling an ecumenical gathering during Holy Week strikes me as re-enacting the Great Schism of 1054 and the Fourth Crusade in Pantomime, in that it comes across as almost passive aggressive.
Yes, I might have had a similar reaction.

I think the thing is, the local non-denom churches (and one of their pastors chairs the ministers' fraternal) just don't even think of it as "Holy Week" and have no concept of it being anything other than a normal week with maybe a bit of an emphasis on the resurrection on Sunday. When I've talked casually in the past about what we do, I've seen the completely blank faces. They don't get it. So not so much passive-aggressive as oblivious.

But that pretty much sums up my experience with this particular group - I very much feel like the unwanted outsider - so I figured it was better to say nothing and explain later.
for example, the Good Friday service, which was not well attended compared to Maundy Thursday,
Really? That's fascinating. Here's it's Maundy Thursday that's generally not well attended.

There's a long tradition here, pre-Covid, of ecumenical stations of the cross on Good Friday, but I think Covid and a few other things (like high clergy turnover in the interim) have more or less killed it. I must admit I am not particularly feeling the lack!
 
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The Liturgist

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Really? That's fascinating. Here's it's Maundy Thursday that's generally not well attended.
My understanding is that the period of poor Good Friday attendance was a phase, and part of it involved overly dramatic, distressingly disquieting worship at some Protestant churches due to input from the Contemporary Service praise band people. So in my youth I remember attending a Tenebrae service on Good Friday with my grandparents, and my grandmother beautifully singing the verses of the organ-accompanied hymn “Were you there when they nailed him to the cross? Sometimes it makes me tremble, tremble, tremble...” and the minister who replaced the one who baptized me, whose job was actually to replace the church with a larger building (this was his speciality at the time, but he failed to get congregational support in this case) extinguishing the candles on the Tenebrae Hearse* after each lection**, and this service was crowded. And lately I have heard that Good Friday services are again outperforming Maundy Thursday services, which makes a lot of sense given that Thursday is a weeknight***

In the Eastern Church I would guess the popularity is about the same, although one difference is that the lamentation heavy services like the Twelve Gospels service and the services on Great and Holy Friday, such as the Royal Hours, give way at Vespers to a more triumphalist tone when the service shifts gears to become a sort of funeral for Christ, commemorating His victory over death and impending resurrection, and this intensifies on Holy Saturday before reaching ecstatic proportions at the midnight Paschal Matins, Procession and especially the Divine Liturgy (at which John 1:1-17 is read; at Paschal Matins, the first of the seven Resurrection Gospels, the shorter ending of Mark, is read, like in the West, and in the six following Sundays, and then again every seven Sundays throughout most of the year, the seven Resurrection Gospels are read, in order, one for each Sunday, and this seven-Sunday cycle is only rarely disrupted by a proper Matins Gospel, usually on a fixed feast day). The use of John 1:1-17 on Pascha in the Eastern Church parallels the use of John 1:1-14 (historically known as the Last Gospel for its role in the traditional Latin mass (and in the Armenian liturgy) on Christmas Day in the Western Church.

* This is what the candelabras used at Tenebrae services on Maundy Thursday and Good Friday are called.

** This is extremely similiar to the Twelve Gospels Service in which twelve Passion Gospels are read at Matins on Good Friday, which happens on Thursday evening, in the Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine Rite Catholic churches, which use a holder for twelve candles which are progressively extinguished, like the candles in a Tenebrae hearse; Vespers on Holy Thursday by the way happens in the morning with the Vesperal Divine Liturgy of St. Basil, which has the same lections as its traditional Western equivalents, for example, 1 Corinthians 11, including verses 27 through 34, is the Epistle, and it is sometimes known as the “Institution Liturgy.” Matins for Holy Monday through Holy Saturday happens in the evening of the previous day, and specifically Matins for Holy Monday through Holy Thursday is called Bridegroom Matins, and there is a Presanctified Liturgy on the mornings of Holy Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, while many Greek, Antiochian and other parishes now do Holy Unction on Holy Wednesday, sometimes displacing Bridegroom Matins for Holy Thursday; the traditional date is the last Friday in Lent, the Friday before Lazarus Saturday and Palm Sunday, and this is when the Copts also serve it; I believe I have remarked before on how the Coptic and Byzantine Holy Unction services are uniquely identical, consisting of seven sets of Epistles, Gospels, and prayers consecrating the oil, which can be associated with the lighting of one of sevenn oil lamps or a wick entering a bowl of oil, whereas those of the East and West Syriac, Armenian, Latin and other rites are quite different. I have also seen, for reasons of clergy availability, Holy Unction served after the Divine Liturgy and seafood lunch on Palm Sunday at a schismatic ex-ROCOR Russian Old Calendarist parish.

*** except in Islamic countries, in which case Thursday evening is when many Christian churches less doctrinaire about Sunday serve Vespers, and also it is when the main psuedo-Eucharistic sema liturgy of the Alevi and Bektasi Sufis in Turkey and Kurdistan happens, and the Alevis and Bektasis, like the Yazidis and Yarsanis, exhibit crypto-Christian and Gnostic influence, and separately the Mevlevis who seem less crypto-Christian also perform their sema liturgy, consisting of their famous whirling dance and virtuoso performances with instruments like the Ney, on Thursday night.
 
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Paidiske

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We had the kids create their favourite part of the Easter story out of Lego. This depiction of the resurrection (Jesus is supposed to be floating on rays of light) was rather special.
Just don't ask me why Mary Magdalene is carrying a carrot. I guess, the practical and wise women knew the importance of snacks, but the blokes writing the gospels left it out...?

Lego resurrection.jpg
 
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The Liturgist

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We had the kids create their favourite part of the Easter story out of Lego. This depiction of the resurrection (Jesus is supposed to be floating on rays of light) was rather special.
Just don't ask me why Mary Magdalene is carrying a carrot. I guess, the practical and wise women knew the importance of snacks, but the blokes writing the gospels left it out...?

View attachment 330161

Well, St. John does conclude his Gospel by saying that he supposed there was not enough space in all the books of the world to contain everything our Lord did, let alone his disciples such as St. Mary Magdalene. That said I wonder if carrots were even available in Judaea in the 1st century? The fruits that are mentioned in scripture tend to be among my favorites, by the way, such as figs and pomegranates (although the figs we have in the Southwestern US taste better as they have a smoother texture compared to the Levantine varieties which require a fig wasp to pollinate them, as fig wasps cannot thrive in our environment).

Maybe the kids are aware of the legend of the first Easter eggs, that miraculously turned red after being gathered by St. Mary Magdalene, or the related story with her and the Emperor and the egg turning red, and thus, the apparent carrot being carried by St. Mary Magdalene is actually supposed to be an egg? Of course the green stalk is a problem, but when you’re a kid you can make believe your way around parts shortages, and as far as I know, Lego does not make an egg that Lego people can carry.

Still, I would encourage you to ask them and post their answer, because Matthew 21:18 can be interpreted that children can have edifying things to say.
 
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Paidiske

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That said I wonder if carrots were even available in Judaea in the 1st century?
Believe it or not, this prompted me to google, and apparently they originated in and spread from Persia even before this time. So quite likely they were at least known, if not commonly grown.
Maybe the kids are aware of the legend of the first Easter eggs, that miraculously turned red after being gathered by St. Mary Magdalene, or the related story with her and the Emperor and the egg turning red, and thus, the apparent carrot being carried by St. Mary Magdalene is actually supposed to be an egg?
I'd say that's unlikely, although you never know what they've picked up.
Still, I would encourage you to ask them and post their answer, because Matthew 21:18 can be interpreted that children can have edifying things to say.
I asked the creator of this scene, and her answer was, "Why not?"

Well. Why not, indeed?
 
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Believe it or not, this prompted me to google, and apparently they originated in and spread from Persia even before this time.

Actually that’s interesting, because I realized that the small Persian salads that one gets at a Persian restaurant before a delicious kabob such as Zereshk Polo or a Sultana plate with the above and a beer Kobideh, and to drink some minty doogh, ideally in all cases with a flat bread similiar to Naan freshly baked (the Hotel Shahabad near UCLA on Wilshire and Westwood has a beautiful blue-tiled spherical oven in which they bake the bread) can often feature carrots.

However they are not a fixture of any of the major Persian stews I have had, for example, there is a delicious stew made from dark chicken meat and walnuts the name of which escapes me but which I find myself craving at 03:36, so that is a craving likely to go unsatisfied.
 
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