Honesty

[James_Lai]

Hello.
I have a question about your own experience of walk in the Christian faith.

It concerns intellectual honesty towards teachings.

I see that people accept teachings, and then stop questioning. Axiomatic, dogmatic approach. Of course I understand it’s how faith or religion works. Otherwise it’s not religion.

How is it possible? I know, people are scared to miss heaven or end up in hell. When I for a few moments consider the possibilities of those outcomes in the afterlife, I also get genuinely scared, it’s a natural psychological reaction. We want to avoid suffering and we like pleasure. It’s the most basic mechanism of motivation that we share with most forms of life on earth. Even the nervous system of lobsters is practically identical in that regard, how their actions are controlled. Carrot and stick. Both rooted in the same brain region as shown by the latest research.

We are more than our nervous system though. Can we overcome the more primitive urges and try and see certain things as they are objectively?

This has to do with any kind of faith, not only Christianity. Even atheist worldview for example.

Or is it imperative to step over the higher conscious frontal cortex reasoning? I don’t know.

I’m not saying rejecting something outright only because it requires faith. A hypothesis is a healthy way to propose ideas that can be very true. I’m more interested in to what degree do you allow doubt? Or is doubt to be chased away as a double-minded man’s destructive waves?

 

[eleos1954]

Hello.
I have a question in regards your own experience of walk in the Christian faith.

It concerns with intellectual honesty towards teachings.

I see that people accept teachings, and then stop questioning. Axiomatic, dogmatic approach. Of course I understand it’s how faith or religion works. Otherwise it’s not religion.

How is it possible? I know, people are scared to miss heaven or end up in hell. When I for a few moments consider the possibilities of those outcomes in the afterlife, I also get genuinely scared, it’s a natural psychological reaction. We want to avoid suffering and we like pleasure. It’s the most basic mechanism of motivation that we share with most forms of life on earth. Even the nervous system of lobsters is practically identical in that regard, how their actions are controlled. Carrot and stick. Both rooted in the same brain region as shown by the latest research.

We are more than our nervous system though. Can we overcome the more primitive urges and try and see certain things as they are objectively?

This has to do with any kind of faith, not only Christianity. Even atheist worldview for example.

Or it’s imperative to step over the higher conscious frontal cortex reasoning? I don’t know.

I know, people are scared to miss heaven or end up in hell. When I for a few moments consider the possibilities of those outcomes in the afterlife, I also get genuinely scared, it’s normal psychological reaction.

Hell is the grave ... we turn to dust .... scientifically we know so, and biblically also says so.

There is no CONSCIENCENOUS in the grave, nothing to fear.

The mis teaching of hell does indeed create fear and panic in some people .... and this is very sad and being propagated by churches no less. There are people who suffer great mental anguish over it ... and unnecessarily so.

The bible teaches death as a dormant sleep, until the Lord returns ... no reason to be afraid.

There is a vestige of the creator in every person, some recognize it as such others do not.

Those who believe in a "burning hell" where God tortures people .... what kind of a God is that? Jesus, who was God in the flesh never tortured anyone.

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Jesus did not torture ... neither does the Father.

If you insist on teaching a torturing God ... then go start a thread on it .... and may God forgive you for it.

 

[sandman]

There is very little that needs to be taken on faith in Christianity.….religion on the other hand paints a different story.

There are a couple unanswered questions I have from Genesis …. but it is not critical or detrimental to my walk or salvation.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Study the creation, especially earth. It does wonders for one's faith.

Romans 1:20
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead..."

 

[James_Lai]

Hell is the grave ... we turn to dust .... scientifically we know so, and biblically also says so.

There is no CONSCIENCENOUS in the grave, nothing to fear.

The mis teaching of hell does indeed create fear and panic in some people .... and this is very sad and being propagated by churches no less. There are people who suffer great mental anguish over it ... and unnecessarily so.

The bible teaches death as a dormant sleep, until the Lord returns ... no reason to be afraid.

There is a vestige of the creator in every person, some recognize it as such others do not.

Those who believe in a "burning hell" where God tortures people .... what kind of a God is that? Jesus, who was God in the flesh never tortured anyone.

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Jesus did not torture ... neither does the Father.

If you insist on teaching a torturing God ... then go start a thread on it .... and may God forgive you for it.

Thank you for explaining your view on hell. In my question the particulars of the fate after death isn’t the main idea. OK, annihilation vs eternal life. Being erased as opposed to conscious eternal bliss is also a similar dichotomy in essence, even if less intense. But the OP question was more about honesty towards teachings in your own experience as a believer

 

[James_Lai]

There is very little that needs to be taken on faith in Christianity.….religion on the other hand paints a different story.

There are a couple unanswered questions I have from Genesis …. but it is not critical or detrimental to my walk or salvation.

Thank you for sharing your position about faith/knowing from your own experience. It’s very interesting.

OK, those very few things to be accepted by faith, how are they to be approached? Beyond any doubt, or a measure of skepticism could be allowed? I’m asking about your personal experience in every day walk since accepting the faith

 

[James_Lai]

Study the creation, especially earth. It does wonders for one's faith.

Romans 1:20
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead..."

Thank you for the advise. Yes I understand this idea and I do study and practice a natural science as my profession. When I look at Christianity, it mostly deals with the spiritual that has no direct relation to the facts of Nature. How do you treat those teachings?

 

[eleos1954]

Thank you. In my question the particulars of the fate after death isn’t the main idea. OK, annihilation vs eternal life. Being erased as opposed to conscious eternal bliss is also a similar dichotomy in essence, even if less intense. But the OP question was more about honesty towards teachings

it is sad ... but also true .... false teachings in the churches ... important each study on their own. We are told in His Word it would be so.

I think we all can understand war .... there is a spiritual war going on. We are born into a battleground (earth).

The war has been won through Christ .... and He will indeed return and end the war one day .... yes and through annihilation ... but thank God it (the war) WILL end and for eternity.

 

[Albion]

When I look at Christianity, it mostly deals with the spiritual that has no direct relation to the facts of Nature.

How so?

 

[James_Lai]

it is sad ... but also true .... false teachings in the churches ... important each study on their own. We are told in His Word it would be so.

I think we all can understand war .... there is a spiritual war going on. We are born into a battleground (earth).

The war has been won through Christ .... and He will indeed return and end the war one day .... yes and through annihilation ... but thank God it (the war) WILL end and for eternity.

Do you question your faith? How do you deal with doubt? From the practical point of view

 

[James_Lai]

How so?

Isn’t it the distinction of religion and knowledge, science? If we want facts of nature we go to a physics professor or a chemistry technician or open a science textbook. If we want to learn about God or the human spirit, we go to a preacher or a theologian or open the Scripture. I expand the definition of religion to include religion-like worldviews, such as atheist materialism, though I know many would object to that.

 

[Albion]

Isn’t it the distinction of religion and knowledge, science? If we want facts of nature we go to a physics professor or a chemistry technician. If we want to learn about God or the human spirit, we go to a preacher or the Scripture. I expand the definition of religion to include religion-like worldviews, such as atheist materialism, though I know many would object to that.

I was hoping for a couple of examples of how Christianity deals with the spiritual and has no direct relationship with the facts of Nature.

 

[James_Lai]

I was hoping for a couple of examples of how Christianity deals with the spiritual and has no direct relationship with the facts of Nature.

I already gave two examples. The doctrine of God. A transcendent higher conscious being with certain supernatural characteristics. The doctrine of human spirit, an eternal identity of consciousness separate from the physical body. These are of course very rough definitions. Even to define God and spirit you have to mention separateness and transcendence to Nature. We can go on an on. Miracles, heaven, eternal life, angels etc

Both doctrines above can absolutely be 100% true! They require faith though.

It’s a great question, but off topic… Do you have an answer to the OP? I’m highly interested to hear Christian believer’s outlook at honesty in approaching teachings.

 

[Albion]

I already gave two examples. The doctrine of God. A transcendent conscious being with certain supernatural characteristics. The doctrine of human spirit, an eternal identity of consciousness separate from the physical body. These are of course very rough definitions. Even to define God and spirit you have to mention separateness and transcendence to Nature. We can go on an on. Miracles, heaven, eternal life, etc

Okay, but I wouldn't call thinking God to be a spirit, or that he can perform miracles, as meaning that the religion is at odds with the facts of Nature. If it were so, the only religion that would qualify as having a direct relationship with the facts of Nature would be one that worships Nature.

Indeed, all Christian sacraments require a physical element in order to be valid, our God took on a human nature, and we believe in the ultimate reunification of the body with the soul. It may be that Christianity has a more direct relationship with Nature than you suspect and more than other of the great world religions do.

 

[Sketcher]

I’m more interested is to what degree do you allow doubt? Or is doubt to be chased away as a double-minded man’s destructive waves?

The big question for me is, what do I doubt, and why do I doubt it?

A double-minded man has anxiety issues. I was that man. In that context, doubt is essentially faith in something negative. When I doubted that God could or would forgive me, I had faith in something outside of the New Testament that ran counter to its teachings about the power, authority, and mercy of God through Jesus. So faith and doubt to me are really two sides of the same coin. I doubt this, because I have faith in that. I have faith in this, so I have my doubts about that. Now, I realize that when discovering new information, there's a middle state where you simply don't know enough to make a call at all, but that was not my circumstance at this juncture and both "sides" had made their cases already. When it comes to a decision to follow Jesus, the cases have been made and the time has come when there is no middle anymore - yes, or no.

So, in the context that is relevant, we have faith in one direction, and faith in the other direction. If doubt enters, that is still faith in something else. And therefore that doubt can be questioned. If I believe in this, why do I doubt that? Does doubt in one thing nullify faith in another thing? What are the dependencies at stake? One of my hobbies and skill sets is Linux. When installing software on Linux, the best way to do that is through the trusted repository, because it will automatically install the software that you want, and the software dependencies that it needs in order to run. Break a dependency, and you break the software. If you frame a core belief of Christianity as the software, and doubt enters, then one must ask if the reason for the doubt is really a dependency. Often times, it isn't.

For example: "God doesn't exist because a bad thing happened" is false. The existence of God does not depend upon whether or not bad things happen. The Bible records many bad things happening in both Testaments, yet it is given that God exists. And little wonder, because a God that is preeminent, who pre-existed the world in which bad things happen, and who pre-existed the people who do bad things does not depend on their good behavior in order to exist.

Hello.
I have a question about your own experience of walk in the Christian faith.

It concerns intellectual honesty towards teachings.

I see that people accept teachings, and then stop questioning. Axiomatic, dogmatic approach. Of course I understand it’s how faith or religion works. Otherwise it’s not religion.

How is it possible? I know, people are scared to miss heaven or end up in hell. When I for a few moments consider the possibilities of those outcomes in the afterlife, I also get genuinely scared, it’s a natural psychological reaction. We want to avoid suffering and we like pleasure. It’s the most basic mechanism of motivation that we share with most forms of life on earth. Even the nervous system of lobsters is practically identical in that regard, how their actions are controlled. Carrot and stick. Both rooted in the same brain region as shown by the latest research.

We are more than our nervous system though. Can we overcome the more primitive urges and try and see certain things as they are objectively?

This has to do with any kind of faith, not only Christianity. Even atheist worldview for example.

Or is it imperative to step over the higher conscious frontal cortex reasoning? I don’t know.

In terms of natural psychological reactions, Christianity actually teaches us to not rely solely on those. Those reactions are the same ones that cause us to pre-judge, and when we act out of prejudice, then it's very easy to do and say unwise and unloving things. It teaches us to be patient, to evaluate before reacting, to not overreact when we react. It's the wisdom of Proverbs, and Jesus lived this way too. This is closely related to another Christian virtue, humility. We must be humble enough to gather information about situations and to give people benefit of the doubt as we gather that information so that we can make a right judgment. It is also closely related to honesty, because it's easy to get careless when we simply react, and just as we can act on misinformation, we can pass on misinformation. The more honest and humble we are, the more careful we will be in what we say.

All of this is Biblical wisdom applied, though it might not be packaged in a way that some people choose to package it.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Thank you for the advise. Yes I understand this idea and I do study and practice a natural science as my profession. When I look at Christianity, it mostly deals with the spiritual that has no direct relation to the facts of Nature. How do you treat those teachings?

As God is the creator of the material universe I can't separate the two. The material world is the workshop of the spiritual.

 

[Tolworth John]

I have a question about your own experience of walk in the Christian faith.

It concerns intellectual honesty towards teachings.

I see that people accept teachings, and then stop questioning. Axiomatic, dogmatic approach. Of course I understand it’s how faith or religion works.

No it is about honesty towards truth.

You have examined detailed investigations into Christianity by intelligent determined investigators. Have they shown Jesus's resurrection to be true or false?

For me it was a shock to discover that if there was no resurrection there was no case for Christianity.
I found the evidence confirmed hat the bible says so I had no choice but to follow the truth.

Are you able to be as honest?

 

[Martinius]

I have a question about your own experience of walk in the Christian faith.

It concerns intellectual honesty towards teachings.

I see that people accept teachings, and then stop questioning. Axiomatic, dogmatic approach. Of course I understand it’s how faith or religion works. Otherwise it’s not religion.

First, I could and would argue that the "dogmatic approach" is not necessary for religion. In reading the Gospels, there is little if anything that Jesus said about dogma and doctrine. The fundamental truths of Christianity really are not about doctrines, but rather about embracing the Gospel (Good News) and taking action accordingly. Over the centuries, the "practice" of Christianity has become one of verbal assent to a list of beliefs and doctrines. Not at all what Jesus commanded his followers to do.

You ask about our personal experience. I was baptized Catholic but not raised in the faith. So, very little Mass attendance, no Catholic schooling, no Catholic religious education. As a young adult, and under the benign influence of a person I call my guardian angel, I began taking instruction. This included reading a catechism. Much of what I read brought questions to my mind. I asked friends who were Cradle Catholics my questions. I could not find anyone who had either wondered about these things themselves or questioned what they had been taught. I was frankly amazed.

I could not, back then, be that kind of Catholic Christian, nor can I be that kind now. I had the opportunity to discuss some of my questions and doubts with various religious instructors, priests, and even a bishop or two. An example I recall clearly is talking with the associate pastor of my parish at the time about why we had all these holy days for Mary. To me, it made her more important than Jesus in the view of the Church. He did not admonish me but actually agreed with my viewpoint. Of course, neither of us could do anything about it.

There have been times when I've asked a priest (and once a bishop) if I should refrain from Communion since I wasn't sure if I could whole-heartedly accept all of the Church's teachings. In no case did any of them discourage me or prohibit me; rather, they commended me for coming to them and talking about it. I think they appreciated that a Catholic layperson was actually trying to understand some of these more difficult subjects, rather than just accepting what they were told but did not understand.

An example I will use is that several surveys of Catholic churchgoers show that only about half either understand the concept of Transubstantiation or accept it. But they go to Mass and receive Communion anyway. I cannot be that kind of Catholic.

My conclusion is that people are not really honest about the teachings of the Church. But this could be from ignorance more than purposeful rejection.

I think the biggest problem in this regard is that the fundamental points of the Gospels have been obscured and replaced with a lot bric-a-brac, which the institutional churches have made more important than following Jesus.

 

[sandman]

Thank you for sharing your position about faith/knowing from your own experience. It’s very interesting.

OK, those very few things to be accepted by faith, how are they to be approached? Beyond any doubt, or a measure of skepticism could be allowed? I’m asking about your personal experience in every day walk since accepting the faith

I came from a different place than most ….although I was raised in the RC church I ditched that at about age 14 and after a few years I became an atheist…shortly thereafter I got into Satanism and became a priest in a coven. ….(very long story) but God literally rescued me from the grips of death ..and there was no doubt about who rescued me… because what took place showed me that God had greater power than Satan…….and I had seen and operated the satanic powers.

Many Christians question if they are saved …and they take that on faith…. I do not… because God has given us an absolute means to know if we are born again…. But many people are reluctant to tap that…. I don’t question my salvation… whatsoever.

About the only thing I have to take on faith is the “HOPE” ….the return of Christ…. You can’t see or believe for hope, you can only have the faith that it will happen….. I think that is it….I thought there was more but…that is all.

I know that there are a few things that many Christians say they take on faith…. like what happen when you die, questions about heaven or hell, do believers go through the tribulation…these are some of the things that religion has twisted up so badly and added their own definition to, I’m not surprised they don’t have a clear answer to ….But the Bible clearly lays out the answers to everything….there are no mysteries or secrets that God has not explained….that only happens with religions because religion is what man thinks of God as opposed to what God wrought through His son Jesus Christ.



There are biblical questions that I have but nothing significant …things like…. why and what was the fruit on the tree of knowledge of good and evil.. and what was the tree. What caused the earth to become a wasteland between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2….

Things I will find out in due time

 

[disciple Clint]

Hello.
I have a question about your own experience of walk in the Christian faith.

It concerns intellectual honesty towards teachings.

I see that people accept teachings, and then stop questioning. Axiomatic, dogmatic approach. Of course I understand it’s how faith or religion works. Otherwise it’s not religion.

How is it possible? I know, people are scared to miss heaven or end up in hell. When I for a few moments consider the possibilities of those outcomes in the afterlife, I also get genuinely scared, it’s a natural psychological reaction. We want to avoid suffering and we like pleasure. It’s the most basic mechanism of motivation that we share with most forms of life on earth. Even the nervous system of lobsters is practically identical in that regard, how their actions are controlled. Carrot and stick. Both rooted in the same brain region as shown by the latest research.

We are more than our nervous system though. Can we overcome the more primitive urges and try and see certain things as they are objectively?

This has to do with any kind of faith, not only Christianity. Even atheist worldview for example.

Or is it imperative to step over the higher conscious frontal cortex reasoning? I don’t know.

I’m not saying rejecting something outright only because it requires faith. A hypothesis is a healthy way to propose ideas that can be very true. I’m more interested in to what degree do you allow doubt? Or is doubt to be chased away as a double-minded man’s destructive waves?

One of the best cures for doubt is to remember that Christianity has been around over 2000 years, if there were things that were not rational it would have disappeared long ago, there is a logical reason for everything we believe.