Honest Questions for Christians

[Assyrian]

Jesus actually told the thief he would be in paradise with him that very day. What prophecies refer to a restoration of Eden?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Jesus actually told the thief he would be in paradise with him that very day. What prophecies refer to a restoration of Eden?

It is believed by many that 'today' meant the 'next conscious moment'. Time, for all practical purposes, is suspended when one is dead.....The garden of Eden itself won't be restored, but the whole earth will be restored to an Edenlike condition; beautiful, fruitful, etc.

 

[Assyrian]

It is believed by many that 'today' meant the 'next conscious moment'. Time, for all practical purposes, is suspended when one is dead.....

So when Paul was caught up to paradise 2Cor 12:3 the thief wasn’t there?

The garden of Eden itself won't be restored, but the whole earth will be restored to an Edenlike condition; beautiful, fruitful, etc.

I am sure it will be beautiful, but the bible speaks of a complete transformation from the original physical to spiritual. Not sure of fruitful either, at least not in the physical sense. God's plan for mankind in the beginning was marriage and being fruitful and multiplying, but Jesus tells us the resurrection is very different Matt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So when Paul was caught up to paradise 2Cor 12:3 the thief wasn’t there?

I am sure it will be beautiful, but the bible speaks of a complete transformation from the original physical to spiritual. Not sure of fruitful either, at least not in the physical sense. God's plan for mankind in the beginning was marriage and being fruitful and multiplying, but Jesus tells us the resurrection is very different Matt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Paul explains, in verse one, that it was a revelatory vision, and was unsure how it was done. He wasn't dead like the thief was.........The spiritual transformation comes at the end of the physical millenial reign of Christ. During that period Israel will be physically resurrected (Ezekiel 28), and the disciples will 'sit on thrones judging (leading)' them during this period. Also during this restoration 'the plowman shall overtake the reaper'; that's pretty fruitful.

 

[twob4me]

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[Assyrian]

Paul explains, in verse one, that it was a revelatory vision, and was unsure how it was done. He wasn't dead like the thief was.........

No he wasn't dead, he did say he was in paradise, though he didn't know how it happened. But however it worked and whatever the nature of the paradise, it exists now. The Book of Revelation says paradise exists now. Rev 2:7 To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.' And Jesus word to the thief on the cross said he would be in paradise that very day. Luke 23:43 "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

The spiritual transformation comes at the end of the physical millenial reign of Christ. During that period Israel will be physically resurrected (Ezekiel 28), and the disciples will 'sit on thrones judging (leading)' them during this period. Also during this restoration 'the plowman shall overtake the reaper'; that's pretty fruitful.

I think you need to distinguish between the millennial prophecies where people live and die and have children (though not necessarily in that order),
Isaiah 65:20 No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.
And the resurrection that follows it where there is no death.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

There is always the question of where do you place the comma, i.e.: Truly, I say to you today, you shall be with me in paradise...........If Paul was 'fully' there he certainly would have remembered if he was in the 'spirit' or the 'flesh'.......I don't know what you're getting at regarding the millenium? The resurrected Israelites of Ezekiel 28 will also go on to die a natural physical death. Paul states that 'ALL' Israel will be saved, not just those that are born after Christ.

 

[Assyrian]

There is always the question of where do you place the comma, i.e.: Truly, I say to you today, you shall be with me in paradise...........

I am pretty sure the thief knew what day it was Jesus was talking to him. Adding in 'today' is pretty redundant. Jesus used the Hebrew 'Amen' "truly I say" in 76 verses. In 74 of them "truly I say" was able to stand quite well on its own without Jesus telling people what day it was. There is only 1 other verse where Jesus adds in a 'today' and that was when Jesus was telling Peter he would betray him that very night. When Jesus told the thief he would be with him in paradise today, he meant that very day.

If Paul was 'fully' there he certainly would have remembered if he was in the 'spirit' or the 'flesh'.......

Not having been there myself I couldn't say, but the fact still remains. All of the references to paradise in the NT talk of it existing now.

I don't know what you're getting at regarding the millenium? The resurrected Israelites of Ezekiel 28 will also go on to die a natural physical death. Paul states that 'ALL' Israel will be saved, not just those that are born after Christ.

So when you talk about the restoration of Eden you are not talking about people and animals being immortal?

 

[elman]

=humblehumility;57585686]This plays into what Varicose brought up and into your response to him on it. Why does God need to love? Was he bored? Was he lonely?

I don't see a desire to have children as being needy for example, just a part of the natural desires of a loving or potentially loving person.

If the case is that he just wanted to experience love, why didn't he just create other God like entities that loved him? Why did he have to create people, knowing that the Earth would become a less than mediocre place to live with all the suffering that happens?

Robots are not capable of being loving. How much good does it do for your computer to love you?

I would say that it's not fair that God made us simply because he was bored or lonely, because of all the suffering we as humans go through.

It is not fair that God gave you life, to experience and enjoy and become what you chose to become? How is that unfair?

That would be a very selfish act on God's part, which I don't think is a trait you would use currently to describe him.

I see the gift of life as a very unselfish act on the part of God.

Why must we experience unlove to experience love? Couldn't God design us to only feel love like he does? Would the world not be a much better place to live?

Love is always a choice and if there is no choice, there is no love.

This isn't about time itself, it's about a point in time and a very specific one. Humans existed on the Earth and then at a certain point in human existence, God finally decides to reveal himself to his creation. Perhaps he wanted to watch how humans evolved without religion first, and then introduce religion? That could make sense, but would be a bit devious and goes against the qualities of God as described in the Bible.

I don't think the Bible does that good a job of describing God who is love, but on the other hand it does the best job of any book ever written by men.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So when you talk about the restoration of Eden you are not talking about people and animals being immortal?

No. The millenial restoration i.e. 'the land will enjoy her sabbaths', is a physical event, not an eternal one. Regarding 'paradise', that debate seems to never end.

 

[Assyrian]

No. The millenial restoration i.e. 'the land will enjoy her sabbaths', is a physical event, not an eternal one. Regarding 'paradise', that debate seems to never end.

Ah right I can buy that. I don't know what to make of the millennium myself, but I can see how you would see similar language describing Eden and in the millennial prophecies.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Ah right I can buy that. I don't know what to make of the millennium myself, but I can see how you would see similar language describing Eden and in the millennial prophecies.

I have less problems envisioning the millenium that I do Eden. I think Eden was more a metaphor for the perfect relationship between Adam and Eve than an actual place (although I do believe the metaphor did have a physical framework in an actual 'garden'). The word Eden means 'pleasure', so Eden was a 'garden of pleasure' for Adam and Eve. Of course this goes much deeper as well. I believe that God was reinacting the failure of his relationship with 'Lucy' in Adam and Eve. Lucifer was guilty of the transgression, but they both paid the price of 'paradise lost'. It is the restoration of this paradisal relationship that this whole thing is all about (imo). But first man must learn what losing paradise is all about.

 

[Dorothea]

I do not want to come in here and attack anybody's faith, and I am not out to push any ideas on people. As with any worldview, there are always core issues that we must face. I have some questions about Christianity that really dig into the core of it all, and I would appreciate anybody who is willing to give these questions a shot. I will answer any counter questions offered up.

Note: these are questions that you most likely will not find answers to in the Bible, which makes them very challenging. Please do not think that you are compromising your salvation by accepting the bravery of taking these questions head on. The questions mainly deal with God's logic and motives. While I understand that it is impossible to know these motives, Christians seem to say they understand what God means when they read the Bible. God also says the kingdom of heaven is within us, and that we are created in his image. I think both of those statements makes it fair for us to give some kind of assessment.

1) What purpose does God have for creating us in the first place? The obvious answer for me seems to be "to love us", but according to the Bible God is all-loving, God is love, and God is perfect. Why would a perfect entity that is love need to be loved more? Would that even be possible?

Good question! The Trinity is perfect love. God always had the Son and the Spirit. Why would He need us? Because he wanted to share His divine energies with the created beings. We were made with the spirit through the breath of the Holy Spirit and through the dust of His creation - Earth. We are the mediator, so to speak of the Cosmos and the Earth. We are both earthily and spiritual - we live in both realms. Now, of course, this is my understanding. I'm not trying to be God or His spokesperson, but this is my understanding. We were all created to be in relationship with Him. We are special because we are the only species of His creation that has the Image of Him in us and is the mediator and Kings (and Queens) of the Earth. Meaning, through us, the world is to be reunited to His Kingdom.

2) Why did God create us with suffering? This is a popular one but let me go a bit deeper into it. According to the Bible, God knows everything that was, everything that is, and everything that will be. Under this logic, God knew that when he created mankind and gave him free will, that he (mankind) would right off the bat abuse it (Eve), and then use it to oppress and cause suffering for all of humanity.

Well, you got part of that right. God did know Adam and Eve would choose to disobey Him through their own disobedience and pride. He also knew the Logos would take on flesh and die for us, for it says in the Bible that the Lamb was slain before the Foundation of the world.

It does center around God giving us our free wills whether to abuse it or to do His will out of love for Him. God, again, wants a loving relationship with us, that we choose Him freely and out of love.

As far as the suffering, that came about due to the misuse and abuse of free will by Adam and Eve, and then the subsequent generations following them, and still is and will continue until His Second coming. It is not He that makes us suffer. It is we, ourselves, that are the cause. Adam and Eve were told that if they ate of the tree of knowledge, which they were not spiritually mature enough at the time to partake of, they would die. God didn't say, "I'm going to kill you and make you suffer if you eat." He gave them the choice as He always does. God never forces Himself on us, but knocks at the doors of our hearts, never breaks in and enters. He is humble. Adam and Eve did not know death and were not made for death before this, but they chose it, basically, and the unnatural separation of soul from body came about after that. Christ came out of love and obedience to His Father Voluntarily to die on the Cross for us because He loves us so. To reconcile our separation from God and restore us back to how we were in the Garden before the fall.

If God is all-loving, why would he set us up for all the suffering that goes on in the world today? He knew it and saw it coming, and since he is all powerful he has the opportunity to step in and stop some of the suffering.

Again, free will. He gave us this gift to choose Him freely out of love and not to choose Him. He does not force Himself on us. We live in a fallen world since The Fall, we are subjected to sickness and natural disasters and everything else that comes with living on this Earth. God heals and helps all the time. When He returns at the General and Final Resurrection, not only will we be reunited with our bodies (our souls and bodies will reunite), but the world will be transformed, like our bodies, into a new heaven and earth. He will make right everything that's ever been wrong or wronged in this world. He does not violate our free will at this time. We freely choose what we do in this life. It is at the end that He will fix all the wrongs in whatever way He does so which is mysterious and beyond our comprehension, but it will be made right.

3) Why would God wait 100,000 years into the existence of man to send his savior and kickstart religion?

He worked with what He had, and He had to work through the lineage of the line in which His Son would be born of the Virgin.

Here's a great podcast on this:

This is part one:
Scandal And The Old Testament Part 1 - Speaking the Truth in Love - Ancient Faith Radio

Here's part two:
Sex Lies And The Old Testament Part 2 - Speaking the Truth in Love - Ancient Faith Radio