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Homosexuality

Pastor Don

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I will start with a disclaimer because this is a public forum and there a many opinions here; this is simply mine and is stated with love devoid of any animosity whatsoever….


Homosexuality seems to be THE hot topic these days. We do not speak about how to take care of those less fortunate around us or the widows in our communities. We do not talk about how we can develop new programs for youth to keep them off the streets. We do not try to help the millions of immigrants that come here to escape the oppression from Mexico. We do seem to be fascinated by homosexuality though and nothing will move forward until decisions are set in stone one way or another. That being said, the original poster asked what our take on homosexuality was and so I thought I would give mine.


I believe we live in a broken world. This world did not start this way. It was created in perfection, however through our sin, we have watched the byproducts of our transgression flow over every aspect of the physical, mental and spiritual aspects of our lives.



Physically, we have mutated God’s perfect DNA sequence into a hodge-podge of off shoots rifled with flaws, disease and death. We see children born with deformities, addictions, and mental challenges every day as a result of what our sinfulness has done to the world and to our blood. It is then quite possible to believe someone when they say they were born homosexual because we clearly have seen our DNA mutated in other areas already so this is another such area. Homosexuality therefore acts more like an addiction that was passed from mother to child in this regards with the parent being the sinfulness of the genetic past.


Mentally, there is an emotive draw much like addiction when we think about relationships. We are pulled together, we feel lost in one another. There is euphoria. The emotional bliss that is found is controllable. We are not animals. We control our feelings and emotions and we can control our urges and desires. It is not always easy. Addictions of the flesh like pornography and homosexuality are the most difficult to escape because they involved the body and the body remembers that sin and yearns for it. You see it when you close your eyes and your memory is vivid and unforgiving. You need a strong support system to help you.


The spiritual aspect of homosexuality is the most difficult. Those in this type of relationship are not bad people. They love. They laugh. They function in society as normal as the next person. The battleground begins with their rebellion towards God. Sin is sin and this one is no worse than any other. The rub is that Christians are required to repent of their sins. Let’s chase a squirrel for a moment. A woman was brought before Jesus. She was accused of adultery. The mob of men wanted her stoned, which was the punishment for the crime for both her AND the man she was caught with. Jesus could have condemned her. He could have picked up that first stone Himself after all He IS without sin. Instead, He slowly made the men realize that what they were doing at that very moment was in fact also breaking the law. Slowly the men left. I can imagine they were unhappy with Jesus and also unhappy that they were not going to stone that woman. Jesus looked at the woman and after clarifying that all her accusers were gone, He told her to go and the next set of instructions is very important. SIN NO MORE….



Using Christ as our example here, we are not in the judgment business. I have sinned in ways that I would feel foolish to pick up a stone a fling it at anyone. I can tell you that there is no greater feeling in the world that the one you get when you lay your sinfulness at the feet of Jesus and ask God to take it from you. Some of these burdens are difficult to let go off because they have grown to be what seems to be a part of you. This is where I feel homosexuality falls. We rebel when our most precious sin is being threatened. Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son Isaac to prove his devotion to God. God stopped him before he had to do it, however this shows you the level of commitment that we are asked to have in our relationship with God. Can we look at the Word of God without placing our personal agenda on it? God does not change. Knowing this, how can we not continue to pray for our lost brothers and sisters?



Peace,


Don
 
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Hentenza

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It is about discrimination, which racism is an example of.

No it is not.


You do if you want to be taken seriously.

By whom, you? :D

You most certainly are. Your single response is "racism doesn't count", and you give no reason why it doesn't count. That is a handwave.

No is not. I have already repeatedly stated that this issue is NOT about racism.


I am stuck on discrimination, no matter what form it takes.

You are entitled to your opinion.



The issue is discrimination, which racism is an example of. People are claiming that business owners can do whatever they want. Why isn't it valid to point out that they can't?

Once again, you are poisoning the well by introducing the race card. This issue is not about racism.
 
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Belk

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No it is not.

Racism is not an example of discrimination or the thread is not about discrimination?



By whom, you? :D

And me as well. It seems like you are focusing on irrelevant discrepancies and not dealing with the underlying logic that shows the situations to be analogous.

No is not. I have already repeatedly stated that this issue is NOT about racism.

No offense, but are you unable to see that we are using abstract logic and pointing out similarities in other areas in an attempt to show you what we see as flaws in your arguments?


You are entitled to your opinion.





Once again, you are poisoning the well by introducing the race card. This issue is not about racism.


No, it is in no way poisoning the well, using an emotional argument, or any other fallacy.
 
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Hentenza

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Racism is not an example of discrimination or the thread is not about discrimination?





And me as well. It seems like you are focusing on irrelevant discrepancies and not dealing with the underlying logic that shows the situations to be analogous.



No offense, but are you unable to see that we are using abstract logic and pointing out similarities in other areas in an attempt to show you what we see as flaws in your arguments?





No, it is in no way poisoning the well, using an emotional argument, or any other fallacy.

The issue is about people that are opposed to gay marriage making a stand for their conviction. Period. It is not about discrimination or race.
 
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Belk

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The issue is about people that are opposed to gay marriage making a stand for their conviction. Period. It is not about discrimination or race.

I see. I think I'll start a movement to stand on my conviction that Christians should not be allowed to marry. Apparently that would not be discrimination. :doh:
 
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Hentenza

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I see. I think I'll start a movement to stand on my conviction that Christians should not be allowed to marry. Apparently that would not be discrimination. :doh:

Go for it. :D
 
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Hentenza

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How is that any different than people making a stand against mixed race marriages? Why is it not discrimination when you refuse your services as a public business because of someone's sexual preference?

The issue is not about race and it is not about sexual preference. The issue is gay marriage. Those that are against gay marriage believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. That's it.
 
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Nani-Day

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As Christians we have an objective source for our beliefs. Seriously the race argument isnt proving anything.

At the end of the day this has been explained 100 times over. Either atheists and liberals dont want to understand what we're saying or theyre just incapable of getting it. We're going in circles.
 
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Aldebaran

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No one is forcing a single christian to open a bakery. If a christian does open a business they are expected to abide by the same laws as everyone else. If following those laws violates their conscience, then they shouldn't open that business. It really is that simple.

Haven't you been reading the bible? This is a Christian forum, so I'll assume you have been (unless you're only here to cause trouble). There were many laws made in biblical times where those who served God had to disobey in order to serve God. The prophet Daniel is a prime example. There are countries where being a Christian could get you put in prison (by law) unless you repent of Christianity. So what would you do? Would you tell the Christian that they have a duty to renounce Christ because the law told them to, or would you advice them to stand up for their convictions? Right now, it sounds like you're saying man's law is more important.

You know, people who were fighting for gay marriage in the past always asked, "How does me being happy hurt anyone else or infringe on their rights?" Well, now we have the answer. They use their 'marriage" as a means of making people do what it is against their conscience to do. Some people don't understand that. Non-christians don't understand it at all, and can't accept it, and of course just love to use the word "discriminate" to demonize the Christian, just because it was so effective when used in arguments about race.

I'll tell you this much: If I was a business owner and gay people walked in and wanted to buy something like a hammer, a bag of groceries, or whatever, I'd do business with them because it is simply selling an item to a person. But if they are coming in wanting me to make them a gay wedding cake, or come to their "wedding" to photograph it, then I'd respectfully decline their offer to do business with me. The least they could do is respect my decision and find someone else versus going to court to force me to do something that they know violates my conscience. But I'm sure you'll disagree. For the record, I believe that a Christian Pharmacist has the right to not sell abortion pills if it violates his conscience.
 
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Nani-Day

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For the topic, im gonna repost this one more time.

"Both are unnatural and abnormal. A homosexual says that they were born that way, and so does a zoophile. When these two groups act on their desires it causes negative health effects. They are both damaging, unhealthy, and unnatural sexual deviations. Now you go back and read what I wrote in my first post and tell me how homosexuality is any better than beastiality."

If you defend one you then gotta defend the other otherwise, its hypocritical.

Also to fellow Christians, stop wasting your time arguing with certain types of people who shouldnt even be in this part of the forum. Ive dealt with people like this for too long. NOTHING you say will convince them, no matter how righteous or logical it is. They are here to insult and argue with you. They are atheist who took the time out to sign up to this site just to annoy you and to tell you how "wrong" you are. That alone speaks volumes about their character. Please pray for them and keep it moving. Its like arguing with your kid sibling. No matter how wrong they are, they will continously insist otherwise. Its humorous at first but soon becomes sad and and embarrassing. Please move on.
 
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GenetoJean

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snipping
For the topic, im gonna repost this one more time.

"Both are unnatural and abnormal. A homosexual says that they were born that way, and so does a zoophile. When these two groups act on their desires it causes negative health effects. They are both damaging, unhealthy, and unnatural sexual deviations. Now you go back and read what I wrote in my first post and tell me how homosexuality is any better than beastiality."

If you defend one you then gotta defend the other otherwise, its hypocritical...

One word... consent.
 
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Nani-Day

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One word... consent.

Already went over this with you gene.

"Im not talking about laws or whats legal, and accptable in your mind. Obviously these relationships and acts would be hidden from the public eye just like how homosexuality was illegal and hidden. Like I said if they stay together and marry when shes 18, then whats the harm?

Also when a dog mounts you everytime youre turned over...then yeah thats "consent" enough in my eyes. Actions speak louder than words."
 
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Hentenza

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And those that are against mixed-race marriage believe that marriage is between 2 people of the same race.

Again: how is it different?

The issue is not about mixed-race marriages. In fact, the issue is not about race at all.
 
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Hentenza

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We are using race to show you why your arguments lack validity.

No. You are using race to boost your argument emotionally. Its called poisoning the well.


If your arguments don't work in the case of race, why do you think they work in the case of sexual preference?

I am not making an argument based on race because the argument has nothing to so with race.
 
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Hentenza

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That's not it. You are also supporting discrimination against people because of their sexual preference. That is much more than belief. Those are actions.

No. I am not supporting discrimination. The argument is about gay marriage. I have the conviction that marriage is between a man and a woman. I do NOT support gay marriage.
 
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Hentenza

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With a straight face?

Absolutely. Are you arguing your race card with a straight face? Is your argument so weak that you have to boosted emotionally?

You actually think that we have not been discussing discrimination in this thread? Really?

Yes. The discussion is between marriage as between a man and a woman and gay marriage.



That's the same as saying that it is about mixed race marriages, not race. That makes zero sense.

When one has bought into a fallacious, emotional argument, all other arguments would make no sense.




Since when do bakers have the right to discriminate?[/quote]
 
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GenetoJean

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Already went over this with you gene.

"Im not talking about laws or whats legal, and accptable in your mind. Obviously these relationships and acts would be hidden from the public eye just like how homosexuality was illegal and hidden. Like I said if they stay together and marry when shes 18, then whats the harm?

Also when a dog mounts you everytime youre turned over...then yeah thats "consent" enough in my eyes. Actions speak louder than words."

If you are not talking laws then I don't know what the discussion is about. The only way I affect your life is through laws. I can't control your morals, only my own.
Moral= try to do no harm to someone
Immoral = intentionally harming someone
 
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Nani-Day

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If you are not talking laws then I don't know what the discussion is about. The only way I affect your life is through laws. I can't control your morals, only my own.
Moral= try to do no harm to someone
Immoral = intentionally harming someone

You alone dont affect me. The lbgt community does. Pushing perverse and unnatural lifestyles on people and telling them that its normal and okay will negatively affect people. Giving a false sense of normalcy and reality is harmful. Brainwashing kids and corrupting future generations with lies about morality, reality, and normalcy is damaging. Filling their heads up with a false sense of justice is harmful. Encouraging people to follow a politically correct mindset is controlling.

People affiliated with that group and liberalism are harmful whether it's intentional or not. They're acts affect not only me, but my children, and all future generations until The Lord comes back.

By the definition of morality that you gave, you must agree that the example I gave a while back about the young girl and older man is not immoral at all, but you know it is wrong.
 
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tremble

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We are using race to show you why your arguments lack validity. If your arguments don't work in the case of race, why do you think they work in the case of sexual preference?

The Bible doesn't support racism. Sure, some people have tried to twist information in the Bible to do so, but that doesn't make it valid.

The baker based his decision on a principle from his holy book. That makes his decision an expression of his religion. It's not a personal preference which he is unfairly using the Bible to justify. It's a verifiable teaching which is easily proven, unlike support for racism.

The racism argument is misplaced and I agree with Hentenza that you are using it to drum up emotional support for your argument.

That's not it. You are also supporting discrimination against people because of their sexual preference. That is much more than belief. Those are actions.

There is a difference between sexual orientation and sexual practice. For example, a homosexual could choose to remain celibate. Although that person's sexual orientation is still homosexual, they are not a practising homosexual.

That is why the baker made a distinction between birthday cakes and gay marriage cakes. He will serve a homosexual in the case of birthdays because it does not relate to homosexual activity. This proves that his problem is not with the person's sexual orientation but with that person wanting to act on their sexual orientation.

He will not serve a homosexual who wants to get married because that does relate directly to homosexual activity, which his religion forbids him to support.

I believe that homosexuals should be treated fairly. It's sad that they've been so spitefully treated for so long, but what's happening now appears to be a reaction against that spiteful treatment.

The basic crux of what they are saying is that if a Christian baker will not support their gay marriage, then that baker should not bake at all. Because they are not Christians, they do not care that this person has a legitimate reason for refusing to support their marriage (a reason which is not based on hate, personal dislike, or financial gain). They see it as more discrimination. Their intense push for social justice has caused them to become unjust themselves by ignoring evidence simply because that evidence is part of a religion which they do not follow.
 
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