Homosexuality

[onemorequestion]

The end result is death.....Homosexuality can't be of God because it bring about no life or the possibility there of. There is not one scripture supportive of homosexuality. I can find scriptures supportive of marriage(being man and wife), being single, women that can not have children... I can find scriptures on relationships between blood brothers, In-laws, friends, children and parents, adopted brothers, government and public............no where does the bible go into depth of how homosexual relationship....If homosexuality was pleasing to God then why is there no where describing this relationship? Why is there no advice for homosexuals in a relationship?

Let me guess that got messed up too in the translation? Get real.....I have yet to see any proof that God is supportive of homosexuality, only attempts to discredit the bible.

Another .

 

[onemorequestion]

bump

That (#678) is a great post Avniel. Not only is your logic healthy, but it also gives us pause to consider each individual liberal position per person as to why they are doing what they do.

It is utter nonsense that a Christian or a group of Christians (a Church or denomination) cannot judge an individual or an ideology (another belief system). Jesus makes it clear that it is important to judge things and people, but with a dire warning of guidelines for doing so.

It's facetiousness at its best not only is incorrect with major gaps the very logic is sophomoric. "This is not clearly stated so God has to be ok with it" is their logic but one could say "It's not supported at all anywhere so God has to be against it"(using the same logic they are using).

"Did God really say?"

It is even worse than what Satan said to Eve. I don't know if sophomoric is accurate. I think it may be misplaced concern or ignorance on the lighter side of pro-gay zealotry, but there is an incredible dark side to it as well. When you watchy the amazing machinations to the "Christian" pro-gay argument, it can both make your head swim watching it being played out, or make you feel quite unwell.

Then there next argument is "God made me this way I was born like this"

That is the morality that kept Adam in his sins.

Blaming God for making him a sinner.

no one was born with a sexual orientation that is default,

I think your position there may not be super solid. There are lots of congenital defects within the populace. I believe if warped sexuality was allowed to stay within that definition, there would be a place to accept homosexuality within a Christian framwork. But this "I'm gay and proud" haughtiness may not be something that can be supported per the truth of scripture.

then there is the argument nature vs. nurture which many scientist and studies have proven arguable that nurture wins.

Or nurture corrupts an individual if the nurturing was implemented badly or misguided. Many brainwashed people were nurtured into their washed brains. I think our education system proves that. Many people go into the education system morally sound, and come out of it virtually satanic.

And the bible says train up a child the way he shall go and he shall not part from it...Basically saying that in the case of nature vs nurture nurture wins biblical speaking and scientifically speaking.

True, But the Bible also mentions people born with physical defects. Defects that can even keep them in a religious category not of their own wishes.

They can not prove it and their only way to win the argument is by bringing up black civil rights, gay marriage(which they can't find one gay marriage in the bible) and accusing people of being anti-gay.

In my vast experience with liberalism and progressive activism, my opinion is that THAT is when you know you are dealing with an adversary of The Way (The Church) and not just some hapless ideologue.

Anyone that employs the absurdity of "two wrongs make a right" and is really demanding that, is always in the wrong. Always.

 

[Avniel]

It is utter nonsense that a Christian or a group of Christians (a Church or denomination) cannot judge an individual or an ideology (another belief system). Jesus makes it clear that it is important to judge things and people, but with a dire warning of guidelines for doing so.

I'm not judging a belief system I am not even saying its wrong. What I am saying is the Bible says its wrong(therefore I think its wrong), but also that the very logic behind it is flawed and simple, and not only lacks Biblical support but it also lacks any other proof.

FOr me to say a sin is a sin isn't judging it's actually trying to help.

 

[kirmac]

To the conservative posters (you know who you are), please take a look at my intersexuality thread and chime in your position. I'm really interested in hearing what you guys think.

 

[godsfoolishness]

To the conservative posters (you know who you are), please take a look at my intersexuality thread and chime in your position. I'm really interested in hearing what you guys think.

oh me??? ok.... I think I may fall into your definition of conservative

 

[Lively Stone]

Where is that thread?

 

[kirmac]

Where is that thread?

It's underneath this thread, I can't post links because I don't have enough post counts.

Its title is "theology of intersex individuals"

 

[Phinehas2]

As I said on that thread the title InterSEX is about the sex of the person, hermaphrodite being a combination, the thread seem more about the sexuality of the person, that being their sexual desires. I have no intention of discussing the position of a hermaphrodite with people who are only interested in same sex sexual attractions. .. remmeber God is primarily looking at the heart and mind, not the outward appearance.
Having a combination of sexual organs and characteristics means the hermaphrodite is not definable as distinctly male or female, thats completely different from a man who thinks he is homosexual.

Same sex relations are condemned in the Bible kiwimac, men with men instead of women, are you saying a hermaphrodite is a man or a woman, and how does that your pro-gay argument as a man?

 

[onemorequestion]

To the conservative posters (you know who you are), please take a look at my intersexuality thread and chime in your position. I'm really interested in hearing what you guys think.

Choose a gender and go with it.

But hopefully, you know that medical science can determine the gender of almost every person on earth by way of their DNA.

Which of course, judges the choices of individuals much harder than anything a fundy can come up with.

 

[OllieFranz]

Choose a gender and go with it.

But hopefully, you know that medical science can determine the gender of almost every person on earth by way of their DNA.

False. A genetic "mistake," called Aneuploidy, can occur in the sex chromosomes just as often as it can in any other chromosome. If it occurs in one chromosome you get Down's Syndrome, If it Occurs in the sex chromosomes, you get Turner's Syndrome (One X chromosome and no Y) Tell me, "genetically," what gender is someone with Turner's? Or someone with two X chromosomes and a Y? Or someone with a broken-off piece of one of the sex chromosomes (either along with two whole chromosomes, or instead of one of them)?

Which of course, judges the choices of individuals much harder than anything a fundy can come up with.

 

[Avniel]

As I said on that thread the title InterSEX is about the sex of the person, hermaphrodite being a combination, the thread seem more about the sexuality of the person, that being their sexual desires. I have no intention of discussing the position of a hermaphrodite with people who are only interested in same sex sexual attractions. .. remmeber God is primarily looking at the heart and mind, not the outward appearance.
Having a combination of sexual organs and characteristics means the hermaphrodite is not definable as distinctly male or female, thats completely different from a man who thinks he is homosexual.

Same sex relations are condemned in the Bible kiwimac, men with men instead of women, are you saying a hermaphrodite is a man or a woman, and how does that your pro-gay argument as a man?

Just flawed logic but before they say "if they were born like that then we are too." I would like to say 1st prove it, prove that homosexuals with out a doubt were born like that....sceinticfically speaking I can find studies that state homosexuality is a mental illness, also studies that state sexual orientation is influenced by nurture(i.e environment). There are studies that state differently but much of psychology is guessing result of studies.

They are trying to confuse people by bringing up something that is entirly different.

 

[Phinehas2]

Yes I agree Avneil, if sexual attraction is innate then paedophilia and bestiality would be justfied on the same basis. Indeed if one should be allowed to persue the sexual attraction they are born with then I fail to see how adultery or promiscuity can be argued against on that basis.

 

[Phinehas2]

Olliefranz,

False. A genetic "mistake," called Aneuploidy, can occur in the sex chromosomes just as often as it can in any other chromosome.

sorry but descriptions of people with Turner's Syndrome refer to them as girls or boys, that’s gender.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

This is such a silly argument. You don't change your sexual orientation just because you believe in Jesus. You didn't stop becoming heterosexual, when you became Christian. Biology doesn't change just because your belief system does. You can't cure "gayness". It will in 99.9% of cases, never change at any point in someone's life.

Many of us have brought this issue to God for 10-20 years or more, and his answer never changes. Neither is orientation changed, or does God condemn based on it.

If you didn't change when you accepted Christ then you haven't been reborned. Rebirth is to come into awareness of God's will through Jesus Christ. Since you don't know the power of change through knowing his will, how can you call yourselves reborn, a very necessary first step to be a Christian. Is God weak and to accept the weakness of his creation over his word (physical, genetic, mental, inborn fallacies to his word or other)? God gives us sexual procreation desires which include protecting the children and wife. This family unit grows and affords many riches that come on their own naturally for generations. The sexual desire is blessed with children and a nurturing spirit, as well as completeness and purpose.

God will bless anyone who is born-again. All you have to do is be willing to change and follow Christ. God will help you to permanently change, despite the doubts and faithlessness of others. You will be so happy and will be able to understand others who are lost and haven't the faith to see His will. You will love them over to Jesus, I pray.

By the way, Obama is for change, modern thinking is for change, human nature is for advancing itself in its own authority and for this type of change. Guess who is the biggest fan for change of all. God. He will change the evil of this world to dust and lead his people who have changed from the will of the world towards his into his Kingdom, prepared for them. Going away from God isn't change at all, it has been around since the beginning, only the excuses have become more modern. Knowledge seems to bring more elaborate excuses to do as you please. Each stone of knowledge seems to be examined as to undermine God. Odd to use God's creation against his existence. Sounds a bit stupid. Are people waiting for the next step in knowledge to corner God into his extinction? Science has one real purpose: to be unbias and seeking the truth. The agendas of men, using the purity of science to mark their will in knowledge as it unfolds, are foolish. The only ones that really count as scientists are the impartial ones, who are willing to put their own thoughts on the back burner. God isn't for change yet and so we need to rethink the modern mind back into the will of God through Jesus Christ and stay there.

There is nothing that I have learned or will in the future that will change my faith in Christ Jesus. The miracles that I had will not support my faith alone, but the knowledge of Jesus' presence in my heart and life will.

 

[oi_antz]

If you didn't change when you accepted Christ then you haven't been reborned. Rebirth is to come into awareness of God's will through Jesus Christ. Since you don't know the power of change through knowing his will, how can you call yourselves reborn, a very necessary first step to be a Christian. Is God weak and to accept the weakness of his creation over his word (physical, genetic, mental, inborn fallacies to his word or other)? God gives us sexual procreation desires which include protecting the children and wife. This family unit grows and affords many riches that come on their own naturally for generations. The sexual desire is blessed with children and a nurturing spirit, as well as completeness and purpose.

God will bless anyone who is born-again. All you have to do is be willing to change and follow Christ. God will help you to permanently change, despite the doubts and faithlessness of others. You will be so happy and will be able to understand others who are lost and haven't the faith to see His will. You will love them over to Jesus, I pray.

By the way, Obama is for change, modern thinking is for change, human nature is for advancing itself in its own authority and for this type of change. Guess who is the biggest fan for change of all. God. He will change the evil of this world to dust and lead his people who have changed from the will of the world towards his into his Kingdom, prepared for them. Going away from God isn't change at all, it has been around since the beginning, only the excuses have become more modern. Knowledge seems to bring more elaborate excuses to do as you please. Each stone of knowledge seems to be examined as to undermine God. Odd to use God's creation against his existence. Sounds a bit stupid. Are people waiting for the next step in knowledge to corner God into his extinction? Science has one real purpose: to be unbias and seeking the truth. The agendas of men, using the purity of science to mark their will in knowledge as it unfolds, are foolish. The only ones that really count as scientists are the impartial ones, who are willing to put their own thoughts on the back burner. God isn't for change yet and so we need to rethink the modern mind back into the will of God through Jesus Christ and stay there.

There is nothing that I have learned or will in the future that will change my faith in Christ Jesus. The miracles that I had will not support my faith alone, but the knowledge of Jesus' presence in my heart and life will.

Nice rant stephen, the evil of the world is due to human ignorance or greed, it cannot be destroyed, it exists as evidence of the negative results of our lives at judgement. I think you could be referring to evil spirits of the world, it is my understanding that their affairs are not ours, we are to worship The Lord and have nothing to do with His enemy or what happens on their day of judgement. The problem in our world dates back to Eden since that time the human has been born with a heart leaning away from God and toward sin. A change (baptism in Jesus' name) means the disciple is now acutely aware of sin and as you said, will naturally prefer to turn away from sin and toward God.

 

[Phinehas2]

Yes Stephen Kendal is correct. All NT scripture supports what he has written. Just for starters I recall in the gospel of John I think that Jesus said the the Pharisee Nichodemus that one has to be born again, we see in the NT one has to be born again of water and the spirit. We see that the spirit life puts to death the sinful life of the flesh, including seeking sexual immorality. We see that it leads to a renewing of one mind to make all thoughts captive to Christ. Jase's comments are simply contrary to scripture.
Pro-gay liberalism lives by feelings and foolish human wisdom, not by faith, belief and trust in God. The problem for the church is it claims it does, but its a new religion, one not primarily based on Christ, but one primarily based on gay/homosexuality. It even puts gay before Christian when it identifies itself.

 

[addo]

What did that 5 month old baby do to deserve being under the penalty of death?

He was selfish and didn't let his parents sleep at night for he cried constantly! [/joking]

Anyway, babies are still a mystery to me. The Bible doesn't say anything if little about them, so I don't know. I hope I'll be in His kingdom and ask Him personally. Until then ... I don't know. Perhaps He'll reveal it to us, but I'm not sure.

But anyway, here is a verse: "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!" (Romans 9:14) He is not unjust for He loves justice and is just, as it is written: "For the LORD is righteous, He loves justice." (Psalms 11:7) And these words are worthy of trust for an inspired man said: "...the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times." (Psalms 12:6) and here the Lord said Himself: "For I, the LORD, love justice" (Isaiah 61:8). And it is again written: "Trust in the LORD with all your heart" (Proverbs 3:5) and "blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD" (Jeremiah 17:7); it is also good to add that "...whoso trusteth in the LORD, happy is he" (Proverbs 16:20).

That's all I can say for God did not reveal to me the mystery of babies, but I trust Him and His word which says God is not unjust (Romans 9:14). He may have His reasons, don't you think?

Stealing harms people, and is prohibited under the 10 commandments. Nothing in Hebrew or Greek denotes that homosexuality is sinful except in the cases where it would be sinful for a heterosexual as well (rape, prostitution, idolatry etc.)

So what? If two gays gays have sexual intercourse with each other, does that mean it is okay for two heterosexuals to do the same? No. What we are arguing here is about homosexual behavior. And this behavior can be done by both gays and straights.

Show me some pro-computer using scriptures, otherwise you are sinning by participating on CF.

1. The Bible doesn't say anything about computers.
2. On the other hand the Bible does speak against homosexual behavior.

This argument doesn't really work. Also by the computer we glorify God by clearing doubts about Christianity online. It is true that it can also be used against Him, but as a knife, it is not wrong nor good, but it depends on the one who uses it. And so is it with computers: we glorify God if it is used properly. How do you glorify God trough gay sex?

 

[Archivist]

Yes I agree Avneil, if sexual attraction is innate then paedophilia and bestiality would be justfied on the same basis. Indeed if one should be allowed to persue the sexual attraction they are born with then I fail to see how adultery or promiscuity can be argued against on that basis.

Wrong, because neither a minor nor an animal can give consent.

 

[Phinehas2]

Archivist,

Wrong, because neither a minor nor an animal can give consent.

On the contrary that’s a further condition you have placed on the argument. If the argument is based on sexual attraction being innate, which is often put forward, then paedophilia and bestiality qualify. If however it is also about consent then the original humanistic argument should include it.
But as I said it is all irrelevant humanism as God’s word shows God made man and woman to be in faithful union, and not another combination.

 

[Phinehas2]

addo,

1. The Bible doesn't say anything about computers.
2. On the other hand the Bible does speak against homosexual behavior.

This argument doesn't really work

Great reply.
The pro-gay argument prentends the Biblical condemnations arent there and then points to other things that arent there. Its nonsence.