Homosexuality

[oi_antz]

OllieFranz,
I guess that means you think that the apostle Paul was a liar and not a Christian. He had major disagreements with Peter and with James, and they eventually compromised. And in Romans 14, he teaches exactly the opposite of what you have written here.

We don't need to argue about this, all that matters is "what does God say to you when you read the verse". If anyone wants an opinion it really is your very own special opinion. Woe and mercy if an opinion causes another to sin. It's been a really good discussion already, looks like it might boil down soon.

 

[oi_antz]

Found a nice verse from that passage OllieFranz, might be controversial translation but it has a nice paraphrase: The Living Bible.

Romans 14:11-13
For it is written, "As I live," says the Lord, "every knee shall bow to me and every tongue confess to God." Yes, each of us will give an account of himself to God. So don't criticize each other any more. Try instead to live in such a way that you will never make your brother stumble by letting him see you doing something he thinks is wrong.

I think that is a purely biblical POV, still wonder is the post just ranting over carnal greed or an attack on the church..

 

[KCKID]

I don't see why they can't be. I've heard of murderers and thieves becoming Christians. Paul tells us in Romans, "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

However, one would assume that once one became Christian, that they would focus on pleasing The Lord rather than themselves or the status quo. As Paul describes it in his letter to the Ephesians, we are "to put off [our] old selves, which are being corrupted by their deceitful desires". For homosexuals, this would mean likewise abandoning their homosexuality.

And becoming heterosexuals ...?

 

[Phinehas2]

KCKID,

And becoming heterosexuals ...?

becoming Christians, thats is believers and folowers of Christ.

 

[Phinehas2]

Znex is right, Christ taught that His disciples are those that seek to do what He teaches (John 14-15, Matthew 28, James 1, Romans 8, Galatians 5 etc)

 

[KCKID]

KCKID,
becoming Christians, thats is believers and folowers of Christ.

Believing in and following Christ is not dependent on one's sexuality, Phinehas. It's a 'heart' issue. Please stop misleading people with your error message.

 

[KCKID]

Znex is right, Christ taught that His disciples are those that seek to do what He teaches (John 14-15, Matthew 28, James 1, Romans 8, Galatians 5 etc)

And He taught NOTHING either for or against homosexuality.

 

[Znex]

And He taught NOTHING either for or against homosexuality.

Why would he need to when it's already been explained in Leviticus?

 

[Phinehas2]

And He taught NOTHING either for or against homosexuality.

He neva said nuffink about anyfink - liberalism 4:5-9

His NT teaching defines man and woman in marriage or alternatively celibacy, and condemns same sex relationships. (Gen 2), Gen 19, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5, 1 Cor 5-7, (Lev 18 & 20) 1 Tim 1, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude 1.

The Christian view is based on what God's Bibilcal testimony says.

 

[KCKID]

He neva said nuffink about anyfink - liberalism 4:5-9

His NT teaching defines man and woman in marriage or alternatively celibacy, and condemns same sex relationships. (Gen 2), Gen 19, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5, 1 Cor 5-7, (Lev 18 & 20) 1 Tim 1, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude 1.

The Christian view is based on what God's Bibilcal testimony says.

You're preaching an error message of 'belief plus conditions', Phinehas. I don't buy into this message.

By the way, I've borrowed your word 'error' ...hope you don't mind.

 

[KCKID]

And He taught NOTHING either for or against homosexuality.

Why would he need to when it's already been explained in Leviticus?

All the best with adhering to the Holiness Code of the Levite Priests, Znex. Don't forget ...if you happen to fail in one of the precepts you fail in ALL of them! I warn you, it's pretty strict!

Note: When you come to realize that the Holiness Code of the Levite Priests is really not for you, Znex, come to Jesus who rescued you from these unreal, irrational and impossible to keep precepts!

 

[Phinehas2]

KCKID,

You're preaching an error message of 'belief plus conditions', Phinehas. I don't buy into this message.

(Gen 2), Gen 19, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5, 1 Cor 5-7, (Lev 18 & 20) 1 Tim 1, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude 1. is God’s message that you aren’t buying into.
One can’t have faith in someone if they don’t trust their words.
This is liberalism, it claims belief and faith whilst it demonstrates the opposite.

By the way, I've borrowed your word 'error' ...hope you don't mind.

its not my word, its one all English speaking use, your objection is to its use in God’s word when it comes to homosexuality which is precious to you than God's purposes.

All the best with adhering to the Holiness Code of the Levite Priests, Znex. Don't forget ...if you happen to fail in one of the precepts you fail in ALL of them! I warn you, it's pretty strict!

Note: When you come to realize that the Holiness Code of the Levite Priests is really not for you, Znex, come to Jesus who rescued you from these unreal, irrational and impossible to keep precepts!

Not sure you can really warn her according to your worldview because its different from the one she (and I) appears to have.

 

[Znex]

All the best with adhering to the Holiness Code of the Levite Priests, Znex. Don't forget ...if you happen to fail in one of the precepts you fail in ALL of them! I warn you, it's pretty strict!

Note: When you come to realize that the Holiness Code of the Levite Priests is really not for you, Znex, come to Jesus who rescued you from these unreal, irrational and impossible to keep precepts!

I dunno, I always thought Jesus was a bit hard to follow;

"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:29)

"You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all." (Mark 10:42-44)

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal." (Matthew 6:19-20)

Despite this, I'm all the more happier to follow him, especially in this law that you've appeared to have missed:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-20)

Phinehas: I'm male.

 

[KCKID]

I dunno, I always thought Jesus was a bit hard to follow;

"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:29)

"You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all." (Mark 10:42-44)

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal." (Matthew 6:19-20)

Despite this, I'm all the more happier to follow him, especially in this law that you've appeared to have missed:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-20)

Phinehas: I'm male.

So, are you saying that you're more than happy to follow ALL the laws contained in Leviticus, Deuteronomy, etc etc?

Well, to each his own. It's really not necessary but ...whatever floats your boat. As I said ...all the best!

 

[Phinehas2]

KCKID,

So, are you saying that you're more than happy to follow ALL the laws contained in Leviticus, Deuteronomy, etc etc?

I can see Znex has quoted NT references to the OT law, so I dont see why you are asking him (sorry Znex) just about OT law.
Do you follow all the laws in Leviticus, Deuteronomy etc. KCKID?

 

[Peripatetic]

Why would he need to when it's already been explained in Leviticus?

Because Leviticus (among other things) also requires burnt offerings, prohibits hair cuts, and requires a visit to a priest when a skin rash is discovered. Even the most orthodox Jew isn't out there doing animal sacrifices today. One of Jesus' missions on Earth was to teach the Jews (and us) a new set of priorities: Love God and Love your neighbor first and foremost, and the rest will follow.

One of the reasons why I am not 100% convinced about homosexuality is this: Matthew 7:16 says, "By their fruit you will recognize them". Paul's letter to the Galatians tells us, "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

The homosexuals that I know tend to show more of those aspects than some of the angry, impatient, judgmental, and generally unkind Christians that I know.

 

[KCKID]

KCKID,
I can see Znex has quoted NT references to the OT law, so I dont see why you are asking him (sorry Znex) just about OT law. [/color]
Do you follow all the laws in Leviticus, Deuteronomy etc. KCKID?

Oh yes. And I can't begin to tell you how difficult it is at times to resist the temptation to boil a kid in its mother's milk.

 

[Phinehas2]

KCKID,

Oh yes. And I can't begin to tell you how difficult it is at times to resist the temptation to boil a kid in its mother's milk.

If you aren’t serious then why do you keep insisting on wanting to know whether people follow the OT law when all of them point you to the NT fulfilment?

 

[Phinehas2]

VertigoAge

Because Leviticus (among other things) also requires burnt offerings, prohibits hair cuts, and requires a visit to a priest when a skin rash is discovered.

Such a response deserves an overview of core elements of Christianity.
Jesus Christ has fulfilled the law and prophets, in His one sacrifice all the burnt offerings, and changes the focus from the external appearance to the heart, so it no longer matters what one wears or how one looks.

One of the reasons why I am not 100% convinced about homosexuality is this: Matthew 7:16 says, "By their fruit you will recognize them". Paul's letter to the Galatians tells us, "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

The homosexuals that I know tend to show more of those aspects than some of the angry, impatient, judgmental, and generally unkind Christians that I know.

That response usually results from seeing the gospel as unkind because it condemns same sex relationships.
The Galatians passage about the fruit also contrasts the opposite, the acts of the sinful nature, which are obvious and include sexual immorality.

What has been proposed here is that a sin probably isnt a sin because the person who does it seems like a nice chap.

 

[Peripatetic]

What has been proposed here is that a sin probably isnt a sin because the person who does it seems like a nice chap.

Nope. That isn't what I'm proposing at all. Just to be clear one more time. My two main points throughout this whole thread:

1. All Christians are guilty of sins that are called abominations in the Bible. Everyone points out Romans 1 when talking about Homosexuality. Romans 1 also condemns gossiping (and Proverbs calls it an abomination). Many Christians gossip regularly. Gossips can be Christians. Homosexuals can be Christians. Some Christians condemn homosexuals more than they condemn gossips because they can't identify with them as well.

2. Many Biblical passages are not 100% clear cut and do not have unanimous interpretations among Christians. It bothers me when I see people here say, "the Bible says XYZ. If you don't interpret it my way, you are not a Christian". This is not only extremely prideful and narrow-minded, it is also against the forum rules. Calling a self-identified Christian's faith into question is prohibited, and has happened many times in this thread. Homosexuality is not in the creed, and a position on it is not foundational to whether one is a Christian or not.