Homosexuality

[Jase]

There is more biblical evidence that homosexuality is against God then there is that it is not. Do you deny that?

I think there are certain same-sex practices that are briefly mentioned, such as rape, pagan sex rituals, cultural faux pas, etc. But I've seen absolutely no evidence of an outright condemnation on all homosexuals.

Of course, to use your argument, there is also a lot more biblical evidence against computers, medicine, and germ theory than there is supporting them. Does that mean they are bad?

 

[Octorock]

You must learn to take things in context and remember to rise above the fact that men's simple, non-scientific knowledge filtered through their prose.

This is actually a very important thing to understand.

 

[Jase]

The bible is indeed perfect, even thought here are some copyist errors that make no difference to the message. You must learn to take things in context and remember to rise above the fact that men's simple, non-scientific knowledge filtered through their prose.

It is wonderful, and not worthy of your scorn.

I think you need to look up the definition of perfect. There can't be a single error, copyist or otherwise to qualify as perfect.

The fact that there are copyist errors, translation errors, and there are a multitude of scientific errors (which I know you will adamantly disagree with) means the Bible is not perfect, regardless of how much you want it to be.

 

[Jase]

That is rationalization at its most obvious! You keep telling yourself that.

You continue to accuse me of rejecting God, which in turn means that I'm not saved. You are aware this is a forum violation right?

 

[Lively Stone]

I think there are certain same-sex practices that are briefly mentioned, such as rape, pagan sex rituals, cultural faux pas, etc. But I've seen absolutely no evidence of an outright condemnation on all homosexuals.

Of course, to use your argument, there is also a lot more biblical evidence against computers, medicine, and germ theory than there is supporting them. Does that mean they are bad?

Another rationalization.

 

[Lively Stone]

You continue to accuse me of rejecting God, which in turn means that I'm not saved. You are aware this is a forum violation right?

I am not. Christians often reject God's good counsel.

Many Christians compartmentalize their lives so tightly that they disallow the Lord Jesus entry into every area of their lives.

"It's OK Lord, you can come into my life and clean me up, but don't open this door or that door. I keep it locked and you can't have the keys."

 

[Jase]

Another rationalization.

Logic and Reason are very important things that I value highly. To remove them is to place us as no better than the rest of the animals. I do not blindly follow things without investigation and careful reasoning.

 

[Jase]

I am not. Christians often reject God's good counsel.

Many Christians compartmentalize their lives so tightly that they disallow the Lord Jesus entry into every area of their lives.

"It's OK Lord, you can come into my life and clean me up, but don't open this door or that door. I keep it locked and you can't have the keys."

I've discussed the issue of my orientation with God for over 10 years. I've been through hell and back over it. He still hasn't convicted me of anything or indicated that I'm going to hell for something I was born with.

 

[kirmac]

There are plenty of people in this world who have never seen a Bible, and yet believe in Christ - so you are most certainly false. The Bible is not God. And there is a difference between outright rejecting the entire Bible, and not interpreting the entire thing literally, or not believing that the Protestant Bible is the exactly correct version.

In other words, you pick and choose only what you WANT to believe. So I was entirely correct. You are inventing your own religion.

 

[Octorock]

Do I really have to do this again?

Leviticus 15:

25 " 'When a woman has a discharge of blood for many days at a time other than her monthly period or has a discharge that continues beyond her period, she will be unclean as long as she has the discharge, just as in the days of her period. 26 Any bed she lies on while her discharge continues will be unclean, as is her bed during her monthly period, and anything she sits on will be unclean, as during her period. 27 Whoever touches them will be unclean; he must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 28 " 'When she is cleansed from her discharge, she must count off seven days, and after that she will be ceremonially clean. 29 On the eighth day she must take two doves or two young pigeons and bring them to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 30 The priest is to sacrifice one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement for her before the LORD for the uncleanness of her discharge.

Leviticus 19:

19 " 'Keep my decrees.
" 'Do not mate different kinds of animals.
" 'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
" 'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

23 " 'When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden. [b] For three years you are to consider it forbidden [c] ; it must not be eaten. 24 In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the LORD. 25 But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the LORD your God.

26 " 'Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.

27 " 'Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

Leviticus 20:

9 " 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.

10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

18 " 'If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people.


Oh, and well, this one was in there too, although I don't think anybody here ever obeys this commandment to it's full extent:

13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

So, let me ask everyone in this thread; who can say that they themselves don't "pick and choose" what they themselves follow from the scriptures? Would it be "rationalization" to ignore any of these clear-cut commandments?

 

[Lively Stone]

Logic and Reason are very important things that I value highly. To remove them is to place us as no better than the rest of the animals. I do not blindly follow things without investigation and careful reasoning.

Allowing logic and reason to cloud the spiritual truth of a matter is serious indeed. Our minds are at odds with God in the natural. AS Christians we are to renew our minds and think as God would have us think. How do we know how God would have us think?

We find that out by reading His infallible word!

 

[oi_antz]

I've discussed the issue of my orientation with God for over 10 years. I've been through hell and back over it. He still hasn't convicted me of anything or indicated that I'm going to hell for something I was born with.

Yes please, can someone show us where it says gays will go to hell I have no such belief like that.

 

[Jase]

In other words, you pick and choose only what you WANT to believe. So I was entirely correct. You are inventing your own religion.

Nope. I take literally that which is meant to be taken literally and which doesn't have glaring evidence indicating it cannot be taken literally without living a lie. For example, I do not take Genesis literally. I know for a fact that the events described in Genesis could have never taken place based on the evidence. I also know, based on the Hebrew, that Genesis (wow, I get censored typing the Hebrew word for Genesis..) was an oral song meant to convey a story in ancient times.

Of course, you're accusing me of cherry-picking, and yet you guys pick and choose what mitzvos you want to follow, and what scientific explanations you believe. I seriously doubt you believe the Bible is being literal when it says the Earth is flat or geocentric, which is what the Hebrews and the Church believed for a long time.

 

[Lively Stone]

I've discussed the issue of my orientation with God for over 10 years. I've been through hell and back over it. He still hasn't convicted me of anything or indicated that I'm going to hell for something I was born with.

God isn't open to discussion about sin in our lives except to ask us to submit our will to his and obey Him. I believe your discussion has been with yourself.

If you feel no conviction, then what has happened is that you have allowed your rejection of God's ways to harden you to His soft voice. God doesn't yell.

 

[Jase]

Yes please, can someone show us where it says gays will go to hell I have no such belief like that.

Homosexuals will not enter the kingdom of heaven is the flawed translation you guys seem to like quoting to claim gays are going to hell. But, I've heard it said many times, so it comes from somewhere.

 

[Jase]

God isn't open to discussion about sin in our lives except to ask us to submit our will to his and obey Him. I believe your discussion has been with yourself.

If you feel no conviction, then what has happened is that you have allowed your rejection of God's ways to harden you to His soft voice. God doesn't yell.

First of all, how have I sinned in this regard? And God most certainly does discuss our issues with us, be they sin or not.

And it's funny that you leave only one option if I feel no conviction. "Obviously if you don't agree with me, you're doing it wrong" seems to be what you're saying.

The other possibility is God hasn't convicted me, because he doesn't view my issue as a sin!

 

[Jase]

Do I really have to do this again?

Leviticus 15:

25 " 'When a woman has a discharge of blood for many days at a time other than her monthly period or has a discharge that continues beyond her period, she will be unclean as long as she has the discharge, just as in the days of her period. 26 Any bed she lies on while her discharge continues will be unclean, as is her bed during her monthly period, and anything she sits on will be unclean, as during her period. 27 Whoever touches them will be unclean; he must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 28 " 'When she is cleansed from her discharge, she must count off seven days, and after that she will be ceremonially clean. 29 On the eighth day she must take two doves or two young pigeons and bring them to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 30 The priest is to sacrifice one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement for her before the LORD for the uncleanness of her discharge.

Leviticus 19:

19 " 'Keep my decrees.
" 'Do not mate different kinds of animals.
" 'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
" 'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

23 " 'When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden. [b] For three years you are to consider it forbidden [c] ; it must not be eaten. 24 In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the LORD. 25 But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the LORD your God.

26 " 'Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.

27 " 'Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

Leviticus 20:

9 " 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.

10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

18 " 'If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people.


Oh, and well, this one was in there too, although I don't think anybody here ever obeys this commandment to it's full extent:

13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

So, let me ask everyone in this thread; who can say that they themselves don't "pick and choose" what they themselves follow from the scriptures? Would it be "rationalization" to ignore any of these clear-cut commandments?

The typical response is, those are all ceremonial laws, and Christians no longer need to follow them. But the homosexual verses are moral laws that still apply. Convenient don't you think?

 

[Lively Stone]

Yes please, can someone show us where it says gays will go to hell I have no such belief like that.

Plainly put:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, 10 or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[Jase]

Allowing logic and reason to cloud the spiritual truth of a matter is serious indeed. Our minds are at odds with God in the natural. AS Christians we are to renew our minds and think as God would have us think. How do we know how God would have us think?

We find that out by reading His infallible word!

His "infallible" word, tells me that the Earth is flat and geocentric, and that the Egyptians were building the pyramids during the global flood and never noticed.

You're welcome to believe that, but I'll pass.

 

[Jase]

Plainly put:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, 10 or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.

What version are you quoting there? I've never seen a version state "practice homosexuality". Did you make it up?

Of course, that verse originally was translated as masturbation, not homosexuality. Wonder why it changed all of a sudden.