Homosexuality

[TheTrueDemosthenes]

Can you in any way prove that homosexuality causes harm?

I hate to argue on the other side, but if everyone were gay. Humanity would cease to exist.

~Demosthenes

 

[yodafett]

There are legally approved gay marriages. The Bible might have said man and women, but it never said not anything else.

What about laws that are diametrically opposed to scriptures? Since they're laws, does that mean it's ok? And does the fact that the Bible doesn't explicitly say something mean that it doesn't deal with the issue or topic at hand?

After all, marriage, ultimately, is a peice of paper with specific meanings.

Marriage is a covenant with God, at least if you're Christian. The piece of paper is a symbol representing it.

Thus why we have police and laws. Laws are made to protect our rights.

Laws are to diffeerentiate between right and wrong, only in America, do we have this preoccupation with our "rights". If we lived uner God's Word, we wouldn't need ANY earthly laws.

Sex out of marriage is not a law, and this country is standing on Christian foundations.

Adultery is against civil laws in many areas. pre-marital sex isn't. Big difference. "Sex out of marriage" encompasses both.

It is the governments decision on whether or not to allow gay marriage or sex out of marriage.

But the government's decision, or lack there of, does NOT affect whether or not anythign is a sin... only if it's legal, according to that jurisdiction's statutes.

 

[Mling]

That message has got a lot more of a post-modern feel than a Christian feel.

So morality doesn't matter, so long as he topic in question causes no obvious harm? Doesn't that run counter to the fact that God has told us certain things are sins, and others aren't?

Somebody should have told Paul, then that he was being a post-modernist, and not Christian.

 

[StTherese]

And nothing you said proves why would homosexual sex be always a sin.... If you want to prove that homosexuality is morally wrong, don't use arguments such as "it's unnatural", because being unnatural doesn't make something morally wrong. And doesn't use the "God says so" argument, because it's nothing more than your personal belief, so it doesn't prove anything.

Can you in any way prove that homosexuality causes harm?

Yes. God created us man and woman for a reason. Sex is procreative in the fact that man's seed is implanted in the woman for the purpose of the possibility of new life. In a homosexual relationship, there is no possibility of new life. The act then becomes a mere means of a lustful act...which is sinful.
What if everyone was homosexual and gave into this lustfulness? The human race would soon disappear..no?

No, it's like a person saying that since they are left handed, then God intended them to write with their left hand.

You seem to think that just because someone has an inclination to do something then it must be God's will...this is not necessarily the case. It is our sinful nature that we must overcome and submit our will to the will of God!

Homosexuality is natural for homosexuals, just like heterosexuality is natural for heterosexuals.

There is nothing natural about homosexuality. What if someone felt that killing others just came naturally?

 

[StTherese]

LOL. It's called divorce.

Feelings don't matter... well, lets torture you for 10 hours straight because you commited a sin of whatever degree. It would be right to punish you and your feelings don't matter...

~Demosthenes

What does Jesus say about divorce?

It is easier to sin than to do the will of God...thus, growing in holiness entails much suffering on our part. But, it is this in which we are called.

 

[*Starlight*]

Yes. God created us man and woman for a reason. Sex is procreative in the fact that man's seed is implanted in the woman for the purpose of the possibility of new life. In a homosexual relationship, there is no possibility of new life. The act then becomes a mere means of a lustful act...which is sinful.
What if everyone was homosexual and gave into this lustfulness? The human race would soon disappear..no?

Sometimes homosexual sex can be just a lustful act, just like heterosexual sex. But in many relationships, heterosexual and homosexual, sex is an expression of romantic love between two people.

It's impossible for everyone to be homosexual, because the percentage of homosexuals in the society doesn't change. But your argument doesn't work anyway, since if everyone was male then human race also would disappear, and it doesn't mean that being male is morally wrong.

You seem to think that just because someone has an inclination to do something then it must be God's will...this is not necessarily the case. It is our sinful nature that we must overcome and submit our will to the will of God!

Can you prove that homosexuality is so harmful that it must be overcome?

There is nothing natural about homosexuality. What if someone felt that killing others just came naturally?

Then I guess it would be natural for them. But just because something is natural, it doesn't mean that something isn't harmful, and therefore wrong.

And since you're not homosexual, then what makes you believe that homosexuality is unnatural for homosexuals?

 

[yodafett]

Somebody should have told Paul, then that he was being a post-modernist, and not Christian.

But God's morality IS good for us, THAT'S what I was tryign to say, as opposed to the idea that morality and beneficial-ness (beneficiality?) are opposed, as was presented.

 

[yodafett]

Can you prove that homosexuality is so harmful that it must be overcome?

Is the issue whether or not it's harmful, or whether or not it's sinful? the topic has drifted a bit, it seems.

 

[*Starlight*]

Is the issue whether or not it's harmful, or whether or not it's sinful? the topic has drifted a bit, it seems.

But if something's sinful, then it means it's morally wrong...and something can be morally wrong because it's harmful.

 

[holo]

That message has got a lot more of a post-modern feel than a Christian feel.

Maybe so. For my grandmother, labeling rock music as satanic "felt christian" too.

So morality doesn't matter, so long as he topic in question causes no obvious harm? Doesn't that run counter to the fact that God has told us certain things are sins, and others aren't?

Morality matters, but morality ultimately is about people. Something is wrong if it's bad for you. Morality isn't just some value that we pull from an old book, it's about our attitude toward people.

If something doesn't harm anyone in any way, I can't fathom why I should be against it. Can you?

 

[StTherese]

Sometimes homosexual sex can be just a lustful act, just like heterosexual sex. But in many relationships, heterosexual and homosexual, sex is an expression of romantic love between two people.

Yes. I agree, and in both instances it is sinful. Romantic love is not real love. Real love is a sacrafice!

Can you prove that homosexuality is so harmful that it must be overcome?

Leviticus 18:22
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Romans 1:26,27
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:​

2357. "HOMOSEXUALITY refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,[Cf. Gen 191-29 ; Rom 124-27 ; 1 Cor 6:10 ; 1 Tim 1:10 .] tradition has always declared that 'homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.'[CDF, Persona humana 8.] They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."
2358. "The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. " 2359. "Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. "


Homosexual acts are sinful and can lead to loss of salvation...what could be more detrimental?

Then I guess it would be natural for them. But just because something is natural, it doesn't mean that something isn't harmful, and therefore wrong.

Exactly my point.

And since you're not homosexual, then what makes you believe that homosexuality is unnatural for homosexuals?

I did not say the inclination was not natural. But, we can have all sorts of inclinations to do sinful acts...it is only sinful when we give into them!
Peace be with you!

 

[yodafett]

But if something's sinful, then it means it's morally wrong...and something can be morally wrong because it's harmful.

If something doesn't harm anyone in any way, I can't fathom why I should be against it. Can you?

But God doesn't work in ways that we understand. Yes, sometimes we can see why something is harmful, in a bright and obvious way, like murder, or theft. Not always. Do you think the the Jews of 2500 years ago knew why there were so many Levitical laws about mold and mildew and the like? Now that science has progressed, we CAN seey the "whys", at least in part.

To seek proof that somethign (anything) is harmful before looking at it as a sin, if a backwards mindset. Look to see if the Bible speaks to it, either by nature, or by name as a sin, THEN if you want to question it, see if you can determine why it is harmful.

 

[yodafett]

Yes. I agree, and in both instances it is sinful. Romantic love is not real love. Real love is a sacrafice!



Leviticus 18:22
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Romans 1:26,27
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:​

2357. "HOMOSEXUALITY refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,[Cf. Gen 191-29 ; Rom 124-27 ; 1 Cor 6:10 ; 1 Tim 1:10 .] tradition has always declared that 'homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.'[CDF, Persona humana 8.] They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."
2358. "The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. " 2359. "Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. "


Homosexual acts are sinful and can lead to loss of salvation...what could be more detrimental?

Exactly my point.

I did not say the inclination was not natural. But, we can have all sorts of inclinations to do sinful acts...it is only sinful when we give into them!
Peace be with you!

To tack a bit on here, since people want to take a twist on what Paul meant in Romans...

Romans 1:26-27 KJV

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

or NIV is that is preferred
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

And NASB, just for comparison
26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.


I don't speek ancient greek first hand, but according to Strong's, greek words used for "men" through the whole verse are

αρρσην and αρσην
male (as stronger for lifting): - male, man.

and the word used for lust was
orexis
excitement of the mind, that is, longing after: - lust.

And the word for another
ἀλλήλων
one another. : - each other, mutual, one another, (the other), (them-, your-) selves, (selves) together

Males longing after other males. How can that be misunderstood?

 

[savedandhappy1]

Jesus created a big law for us to follow. Love thy neighbor as theyself. He never said "Thou shalt not be gay." You're Christian right? To be Christian is to follow the teachings of Jesus. His teachings left out the barbaric elements of the now O.T.

You mean like the teachings of marriage shall be between a man and a woman? Or the teachings of go and sin no more?​

Can you show me where he said that you can't call something a sin, because that isn't loving someone? Show me where confessing and repenting of sins isn't needed since Jesus came?​

We have been told to follow laws. That would be breaking that instruction. We're supposed to be law abiding citizens, and being gay is not yet a crime.

Neither is lying in most cases. You won't be arrested for lying to your parents when you told them you were going to the library, and instead were out dragging main street. You won't be arrested for calling in sick to work so you can go sking, so I don't think that reasoning really holds ups. Of course that is just my opinion.​

Ok. Well. God is All... God is Love... No matter what choice you make, you'll be Loved. As for denying others choice, that is the worst sin. For instance, if someone denied you the right to be a Christian... I'm sure you would find that absolutely horrific. The question is WHERE do we draw that line of choice?​

~Demosthenes​

Yep God is love, but please show me the scriptures that say I love you so much it doesn't matter what you do as long as it makes you happy.​

I would have to disagree on what the worse sin is. I believe the Bible says blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the worse sin, and if I understand the Bible correctly, God doesn't put degrees on sins like man does. There is one sin that won't be forgiven and I listed it above, all other sins are just that sins, in God's eyes. All sins require the same thing, confession and repentance.​

Also I take it you haven't seen the law that they are trying to past that says if a preacher preaches on the scriptures that say homosexuality is a sin that they will be arrested for a hate crime, in the USA? It will carry a 10 yr. sentence if it passes. The church will lose its tax exempt status, and someother things, can't remember all of the things. I will try to find a link.​

It is getting closer to Christians getting their rights denied, as we speak. I have learned not to say it couldn't happen this is the USA, and we are a Christian Country, because that is what happened when they took prayer out of schools.​

Christians were arrested in PA. a few years ago. for reading scriptures and singing hymns within so many feet of a gay parade, and they were going to charge them with hate crimes. I think the only reason it didn't happen was because video got out of that day, and statements that were made got out. If it hadn't made national news I think those people would still be in jail today, and one of them was only 15 or 16 yrs. old. Well I guess I should say that if God hadn't intervened they would be in jail right now.​

Maybe we should start a thread on if someone calls homosexuality a sin should their freedom of speech rights be taken away, and they be arrested for a hate crime?

Here is one link, it isn't the one I was looking for but has some info.
http://www.cwfa.org/articles/9069/CFI/papers/index.htm
​

 

[yodafett]

and being gay is not yet a crime.

Just because something isn't a crime where we happen to live, does not equate it with not being a sin.

 

[*Starlight*]

Yes. I agree, and in both instances it is sinful. Romantic love is not real love. Real love is a sacrafice!

Why do you believe that romantic love isn't "real love"? As for sacrifice... sacrifice is an expression of love.

Leviticus 18:22
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Romans 1:26,27
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:​

2357. "HOMOSEXUALITY refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,[Cf. Gen 191-29 ; Rom 124-27 ; 1 Cor 6:10 ; 1 Tim 1:10 .] tradition has always declared that 'homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.'[CDF, Persona humana 8.] They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."
2358. "The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. " 2359. "Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. "


Homosexual acts are sinful and can lead to loss of salvation...what could be more detrimental?

Well, these are just beliefs, and it's impossible to argue with beliefs... personally, I can't believe how God can be against love, because I believe that love is God's essense.

Exactly my point.

Yes, and it was my point too

I did not say the inclination was not natural. But, we can have all sorts of inclinations to do sinful acts...it is only sinful when we give into them!
Peace be with you!

Well, as I said, for me the inclination to form a loving romantic relationship with a person of the same gender is the same as the inclination to write with your left hand... these are both things that aren't common, but aren't sinful in any way.

 

[StTherese]

Just because something isn't a crime where we happen to live, does not equate it with not being a sin.

very true...not to get off the topic but take for instance the issue of abortion. The killing of the innocent is a grave sin, but is legal.

 

[*Starlight*]

Males longing after other males.

HETEROSEXUAL males longing after other males.

 

[yodafett]

HETEROSEXUAL males longing after other males.

Where does it say Heterosexual? I can't find that even alluded to in scripture...

 

[holo]

To seek proof that somethign (anything) is harmful before looking at it as a sin, if a backwards mindset. Look to see if the Bible speaks to it, either by nature, or by name as a sin, THEN if you want to question it, see if you can determine why it is harmful.

No, it's the other way around. Even under the old covenant, Jesus berated the scribes and pharisees for focusing more on letter than spirit, more on scriptures than hearts.

Besides, you probably do thousands of things that you inwardly label as good/bad without the bible mentioning it whatsoever - you're using your God-given common sense, and you have the option of being led by the very Spirit of God. You basically don't need a bible verse that you don't even understand, in order not to act like an evil idiot.

Paul said "all things are lawful, but not everything is beneficial" - I only wish christians would start focusing on what's beneficial rather than what they interpret to be "moral" - some mysterious incomprehensible will of God, apparently.