Homosexuality

[holo]

You claim to be a "Christian"??? as well as a "LOVER of men"???

I don't mean "lover" in a sexual sense.

 

[Biff]

to holo,

Sorry, I misunderstood!
It might help if you changed your lover of men to lover of people.

Biff

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

How is it disingenuous and arrogant? Homosexuality is a major political ploy, and I sincerely distrust both sides of the debate as their motivations are generally based entirely in power. I'm not discussing individuals or how I treat them, I'm discussing politically biased science. Neither side of the debate has provided significant evidence to support either of their claims. Speculative science is not a foundation for any opinion.

Please define "Homosexuality is a major political ploy" ? Disingenuous and arrogant in the sense that you dismiss peoples feelings, emotions and attractions. Most people know very instinctively, even at a young age where their primary attractions lie, on the sexual continuum. Calling that a "Vice" akin to smoking cigarettes, marginalizes a whole group of people, who have done nothing but accepted their sexual identities and try to make the best out of their lives. No politics need be involved. I notice it is ok for YOU to date and enjoy intimacy, but for the individual who has same sex feelings, they must deny a whole aspect of themselves and be sentenced to lives of desperate lonliness, for fear that God is going to strike them dead, for daring to fall in love.

 

[Mling]

Biff, reading you here is just....I hurt on behalf of your son. Maybe I wouldn't so much, except that you sound so much like the parents of some of my friends. Hey, maybe you are...

Couple of quick questions. Have you disowned him, and left him sleeping on park benches in the name of "family values?"

Have you ever tried to stab him to death or strangle his lover? Have you joked that ranchers have the right idea when they shoot bulls who "act that way?" Have you done so in the name of "good Christian values?"

I wouldn't ask, but you remind me so much of my friends' parents.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Please name one (any) quality you wish you had, but that you don't have yet. Anything at all, like patience for example.

Holo You have to understand that in some parts of the United States, there still exists a very Hard and judgemental form of Christianity. I always thought it was in the past or from story books. But it is alive and well. To them God is full of wrath and fury, waiting to strike everyone that they disagree with down. But keep in mind . But some of these same Christians once wore white sheets and cracked the bull whips of the slave master.

 

[intricatic]

Please define "Homosexuality is a major political ploy" ? Disingenuous and arrogant in the sense that you dismiss peoples feelings, emotions and attractions. Most people know very instinctively, even at a young age where their primary attractions lie, on the sexual continuum. Calling that a "Vice" akin to smoking cigarettes, marginalizes a whole group of people, who have done nothing but accepted their sexual identities and try to make the best out of their lives. No politics need be involved. I notice it is ok for YOU to date and enjoy intimacy, but for the individual who has same sex feelings, they must deny a whole aspect of themselves and be sentenced to lives of desperate lonliness, for fear that God is going to strike them dead, for daring to fall in love.

It is politics, though. That's all I'm talking about here. If people can't distance themselves from the issues they're discussing, then how can anyone find any facts or truth? Would it be too offensive to discuss if it was scientifically proven that homosexuality was a choice?

If you're going to make claims like that, I would seriously hope there's something you could use to substantiate it instead of simple emotional rhetoric. Nobody has claimed that homosexuals are in any worse sin than anyone else, they need fear God just as much as anyone else. But if there is no science to back up the statements you're making, then I'm assuming that you're begging the question here.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

It is politics, though. That's all I'm talking about here. If people can't distance themselves from the issues they're discussing, then how can anyone find any facts or truth? Would it be too offensive to discuss if it was scientifically proven that homosexuality was a choice?

If you're going to make claims like that, I would seriously hope there's something you could use to substantiate it instead of simple emotional rhetoric. Nobody has claimed that homosexuals are in any worse sin than anyone else, they need fear God just as much as anyone else. But if there is no science to back up the statements you're making, then I'm assuming that you're begging the question here.

Politics for some, for others it is who they are. Are you implying that Homosexuality is just an abitrary choice, that can be turned on or off? Please define what you are saying. Why do I need Science to back up what I am saying? You yourself alluded to the fact that the science is inconclusive. It is not rocket science, you need not try to over intellectualize it. One knows what they are attracted to. It is an age old story, the young Homosexual who pleads and crys out to God, because they have been told how evil or abnormal they are, but finally come to some degree of acceptance of who they are, because "change never came. and Lastly.

 

[intricatic]

Politics for some, for others it is who they are. Are you implying that Homosexuality is just an abitrary choice, that can be turned on or off? Please define what you are saying. Why do I need Science to back up what I am saying? You yourself alluded to the fact that the science is inconclusive. It is not rocket science, you need not try to over intellectualize it. One knows what they are attracted to. It is an age old story, the young Homosexual who pleads and crys out to God, because they have been told how evil or abnormal they are, but finally come to some degree of acceptance of who they are, because "change never came. and Lastly.

I can't change what scripture says.

I don't want to sound like one of the people who treats homosexuals that way, though, and that's the place I'm being put into because I see sin as sin, regardless of what kind of sin it is. The only people I've met who've claimed to be homosexuals, and I've met many in my earlier years before I came to Christ [was involved in the occult, OTO, who's main interest was making people into homosexuals, and they succeeded in a lot of cases], but none of them were unable to change the dirrection of their sexuality. I can't speak for everyone because I've not met everyone, which is why I'd require some substantiation to believe that sexuality is static. Everything I've seen is contrary to this idea.

When I said that science is inconclusive, that's true to a degree. Though if science can't find a fundamental reason for homosexuality, a causation that meets the standards of actual science as opposed to open-ended conjecture, that only backs up my position. It's inconclusive because of how politicized this issue has become. It seems like anything at all qualifies for evidence in this matter anymore, regardless of whether it's science or opinion.

 

[Mling]

But some of these same Christians once wore white sheets and cracked the bull whips of the slave master.

Many still do the former, and some wish they could still do the latter.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

I can't change what scripture says.

I don't want to sound like one of the people who treats homosexuals that way, though, and that's the place I'm being put into because I see sin as sin, regardless of what kind of sin it is. The only people I've met who've claimed to be homosexuals, and I've met many in my earlier years before I came to Christ [was involved in the occult, OTO, who's main interest was making people into homosexuals, and they succeeded in a lot of cases], but none of them were unable to change the dirrection of their sexuality. I can't speak for everyone because I've not met everyone, which is why I'd require some substantiation to believe that sexuality is static. Everything I've seen is contrary to this idea.

When I said that science is inconclusive, that's true to a degree. Though if science can't find a fundamental reason for homosexuality, a causation that meets the standards of actual science as opposed to open-ended conjecture, that only backs up my position. It's inconclusive because of how politicized this issue has become. It seems like anything at all qualifies for evidence in this matter anymore, regardless of whether it's science or opinion.

Well don't you think that your perspective is rather narrow in its scope. You met some Homosexuals while you were involved in the Occult. I would dare say that to form an opinion based on that type of exposure is rather biased. I know that in Boston they just had the Gay pride annual parade, The estimates were 500,000 participants. I would dare to say that most were not involved in the Occult . I would say that there are many tales in the naked city. Question for you, I am assuming your heterosexual or close to that on the continuum, Can you erase your hetrosexual feelings? Can you enter therapy and become Homosexual? I know most Gays that I have spoken with, state that these feelings were unsolicited feelings that came on at the onset of pubertty and that they fought them with all their strength. But that is becoming less amd less of a common story, now that Gays are less persecuted in most major cities.

 

[Mling]

On the other side of the spectrum, most of the gay people I've known were alumni of the Christian college I went to. Some of the most Christ-like people I know, in fact.

 

[intricatic]

Well don't you think that your perspective is rather narrow in its scope. You met some Homosexuals while you were involved in the Occult. I would dare say that to form an opinion based on that type of exposure is rather biased. I know that in Boston they just had the Gay pride annual parade, The estimates were 500,000 participants. I would dare to say that most were not involved in the Occult . I would say that there are many tales in the naked city. Question for you, I am assuming your heterosexual or close to that on the continuum, Can you erase your hetrosexual feelings? Can you enter therapy and become Homosexual? I know most Gays that I have spoken with, state that these feelings were unsolicited feelings that came on at the onset of pubertty and that they fought them with all their strength. But that is becoming less amd less of a common story, now that Gays are less persecuted in most major cities.

I've seen many people alter their sexuality after believing that it was an absurd idea. I would presume if I had continued with that tangent in life I would have, as well. However, as it stands, I have no interest in men, and that's not likely to change.

I in no way claimed that all homosexuals are like that, and in fact explicitly stated as much. I'm not going to argue with you because there's simply no sense in it. I'm also seeing that you're drawing a faulty implication that one cannot both hold to orthodox Christian doctrine and still be tollerant of homosexuals, so it's not likely to be a beneficial conversation to begin with.

 

[GrimWolf]

Matthew 15

16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "

Mark 7

20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "

2 Corinthians 10

1By the meekness and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul, who am "timid" when face to face with you, but "bold" when away! 2I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. 3For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.

Ephesians 2

1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I have said this earlier and I will say it again; there is no such thing as "I could not change it, no matter how hard I've tried". We should take every thought captive and make it obedient to Christ. God gave you a free will, use it. Every one of us is tempted to sin daily, but to give in to that temptation is a choice that you make.

I agree with Biff's post about repentance and I also posted a similar post earlier in the thread, but people seem to avoid that and rather try to justify their lusts. Another thing people seem to misunderstand is that we do not judge the people who commit the sin, but we do condemn the sin. I am not trying to humiliate anyone who sins or say that they will go to hell. But you have to realize that if you want your relationship with God to reach new levels, you have to stop your constant sinning. Yes, we will fail sometimes, but blatantly keeping on sinning and then trying to justify it by saying that the bible is unclear, is wrong.

 

[DaveS]

Can you permanently change the colour of your eyes through your own free will (not science)?

Thought not.

If gay people could change their sexuality then why are there so many who remain gay? Surely with all the hate and slander against them, many being murdered for simply being who they are they would all change at the drop of a hat? Why would anyone want to be gay really? There is still a higher percentage of suicide in gay people than heterosexual people - does this not suggest that they cannot help who they are?

 

[holo]

Holo You have to understand that in some parts of the United States, there still exists a very Hard and judgemental form of Christianity. I always thought it was in the past or from story books. But it is alive and well. To them God is full of wrath and fury, waiting to strike everyone that they disagree with down. But keep in mind . But some of these same Christians once wore white sheets and cracked the bull whips of the slave master.

I'm not suggesting Biff is judgmental, only mistaken.

 

[GrimWolf]

Matthew 17

20He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

Matthew 21

18Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered.

20When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. "How did the fig tree wither so quickly?" they asked. 21Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Luke 17

1Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. 2It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. 3So watch yourselves.
"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

5The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" 6He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you.

Romans 1

17For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

There are loads more verses I can quote for you from the bible concerning faith.

You know why they could not change? Because they did not believe that it could be changed. They did not have enough faith in God. Either that or they did not really want to change. You have to choose to change and have faith in God to help you.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

You know why they could not change? Because they did not believe that it could be changed. They did not have enough faith in God. Either that or they did not really want to change. You have to choose to change and have faith in God to help you.

It never ceases to amaze me how willing some people are to render judgement of people they have never met.

 

[IisJustMe]

If gay people could change their sexuality then why are there so many who remain gay?

First of all, there are thousands if not tens of thousands or even more who have left the homosexual lifestyle successfully. Just as the numbers of successfully recovering (or delivered) alcoholics and drug addicts is a small percentage of those who continue in that lifestyle, it is a matter of lack of desire to leave -- not lack of faith, nor an inability to leave.

Surely with all the hate and slander against them, many being murdered for simply being who they are they would all change at the drop of a hat?

Why is this always the example given by those who support "freedom" for those who engage in homosexual practices? The attempt to link the Christian view of sin with violence against homosexuals is disgusting, especially when it comes from other Christians. The Matthew Shepherd murder, for example, was the rallying point for gay activitsts and those who supported the views of those groups, but it turned out the two men who killed Matthew didn't even know he was gay -- they were trying to mug him. Go back and research it online -- the media did a horrific job of reporting that fact compared to the hype they gave the "Christian-violence-on-gays" view that turned out not to be true.

Why would anyone want to be gay really? There is still a higher percentage of suicide in gay people than heterosexual people - does this not suggest that they cannot help who they are?

A similar suicide rate is seen among alcoholics, drug addicts, compulsive gamblers, wife-beaters, those arrested for first-time offenses, and a multitude of other traumatic life experiences. What it suggests is Satan's victory over God's love, as both relate to that one life. No, it does not suggest they cannot help who they are, what it suggests is a surrender to the forces of depression and self-will, and a refusal to change. There are too many ex-practitioners of homosexual behavior for your premise to be true.

 

[IisJustMe]

It never ceases to amaze me how willing some people are to render judgement of people they have never met.

... is that Biblical truth can be dismissed so blithely with human platitudes.

 

[GrimWolf]

It never ceases to amaze me how willing some people are to render judgement of people they have never met.

Either you ignored the rest of my posts in this thread or you never read them. Judgement I leave to God, for He is the only one that is all knowing. I never said those people are going to hell or that they are not Christians. But I definately do not believe that this is "genetic".