Homosexuality

[Robert the Pilegrim]

Therefore, you must repent. And according to popular opinion, repentance means to stop doing whatever you did wrong, doesn't it?

Trying to anyways...

I think that whenever we meet our Maker, not one of us will have the nerve to point at someone else and say "he sinned" or "he didn't repent".

I think some will, until they actually see God looking at them.

 

[Kgreg]

Where in the Nicene Creed does it mention anything about homosexuality? That's the only standard of orthodoxy that the Church as a whole (not the fundagelical corners) accept.

Where in the Bible does it say that we are to live according to the Nicene Creed?

Oh, nowhere!

That settles that, now doesn't it?

 

[GrimWolf]

Acts 3

19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.

Romans 1

God's Wrath Against Mankind

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Romans 8

Life Through the Spirit

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Romans 13

14Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

Romans 14

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. 22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

1 Corinthians 6

Sexual Immorality

12"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Galatians 5

13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
Life by the Spirit

16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

1 Corinthians 6

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

I apologize for the extremely long post, but I felt that it was necessary. Right, let us get this straight. If you believe that Jesus died for your sins on the cross and you repent your sins, you are forgiven and saved. Now if you keep on sinning and thinking that it is okay, not repenting, then you have a problem, because then you are not living by the spirit. Now let me put things to you in the following way, I will not judge whether you will go to hell or not if you keep on sinning, but your relationship with God and your relationships with other Christians are going to suffer.

Please read my last quote from 1 Cor 6 again. Read it carefully. It says that "And that is what some of you were." WERE not is, are or am, WERE. Yes, we will sin again, but that is when we should repent and ask for forgiveness.

 

[DaveS]

But is homosexuality sin?
We cannot assume that it is just because...

http://www.elca.org/faithfuljourney/pdf/background.pdf

Dave (determined to get someone to actually address this)

 

[intricatic]

But is homosexuality sin?
We cannot assume that it is just because...

http://www.elca.org/faithfuljourney/pdf/background.pdf

Dave (determined to get someone to actually address this)

All I see there is a critical analysis of the wording that demonstrates that the Bible was only talking about homosexual rapists. I don't see any evidence provided that all homosexual activity wasn't inclusive in this definition, though, or that any of the authors of the Bible at the time had in mind that some homosexual activity was okay while others were not. But then perhaps you can clarify that for us, since you seem to enjoy using that article so much.

 

[artybloke]

Where in the Bible does it say that we are to live according to the Nicene Creed?

Oh, nowhere!

That settles that, now doesn't it?

The Nicene Creed is the only standard that all Christians everywhere accept as defining what is Christian.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, we're not meant to worship the Bible, but Christ, Who is the only living Word of God. The Bible is a book of words 2000 years old.

 

[artybloke]

I

don't see any evidence provided that all homosexual activity wasn't inclusive in this definition, though, or that any of the authors of the Bible at the time had in mind that some homosexual activity was okay while others were not.

I don't see any evidence that it was inclusive of all homosexual activity either, save that it is what most people have always assumed. Arguing from a lack of evidence is a logical fallacy.

 

[intricatic]

I

I don't see any evidence that it was inclusive of all homosexual activity either, save that it is what most people have always assumed. Arguing from a lack of evidence is a logical fallacy.

That's what the entire article was attempting to do. But considering that Paul was speaking in Romans 1, for instance, to a culture that was embracing homosexuality in general, I would presume that it's equally valid to all generations and cultures.

 

[Colabomb]

The Nicene Creed is the only standard that all Christians everywhere accept as defining what is Christian.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, we're not meant to worship the Bible, but Christ, Who is the only living Word of God. The Bible is a book of words 2000 years old.

Inspired by the Holy Spirit.

In fact, the Creed references the Scriptures.....

 

[artybloke]

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Indeed, it references the Scriptures, though it doesn't say what they are and nor does it say what we are to believe about them. It just says "according to the scriptures" - at this stage, the exact contents of the New Testament hadn't even been decided upon.

The church, however, did exist and the creed does say we are to believe in the church.

Please let me know where in that Creed it says "We believe in the Bible", as equivalent to "We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church," for instead.

 

[artybloke]

But considering that Paul was speaking in Romans 1, for instance, to a culture that was embracing homosexuality in general, I would presume that it's equally valid to all generations and cultures.

Was Roman culture embracing homosexuality in general? What do you mean by "homosexuality in gneral" anyway? Paul's two mentions of homosexuality are in letters either to or from cities notorious for prostitution and sex-worship. Does that make a difference to the context? If not, why not? Why would Paul's instructions to the churches of two cities known for prostitution be of relevance to contemporary life-long gay relationships (as opposed to the bathhouse culture of, say, London or San Francisco?)

 

[intricatic]

Was Roman culture embracing homosexuality in general? What do you mean by "homosexuality in gneral" anyway? Paul's two mentions of homosexuality are in letters either to or from cities notorious for prostitution and sex-worship. Does that make a difference to the context? If not, why not? Why would Paul's instructions to the churches of two cities known for prostitution be of relevance to contemporary life-long gay relationships (as opposed to the bathhouse culture of, say, London or San Francisco?)

What I see in Romans is Paul declaring any deviation from the natural order of creation as sinful - God giving them up to their desires, and those desires consuming them over a period of time. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the culture that was receiving the message is negligible to the intent of the message, although homosexuality was still accepted in many different forms in Roman society, and that was the reason Paul brought it up in the letter.

EDIT: Also, the Romans 1 reference can be inclusive of any sexual activity that defies the archetype presented in Adam and Eve, although Paul does explicitly make reference to homosexual activities.

 

[Colabomb]

Was Roman culture embracing homosexuality in general? What do you mean by "homosexuality in gneral" anyway? Paul's two mentions of homosexuality are in letters either to or from cities notorious for prostitution and sex-worship. Does that make a difference to the context? If not, why not? Why would Paul's instructions to the churches of two cities known for prostitution be of relevance to contemporary life-long gay relationships (as opposed to the bathhouse culture of, say, London or San Francisco?)

He condemned the action of the actual sex, and said burning with Lust for another of your same sex is unnatural.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Temple Prostitution.

 

[artybloke]

What I see in Romans is Paul declaring any deviation from the natural order of creation as sinful

What I see in contrast is Paul declaring that any deviation from a person's natural orientation is sinful. "Para phusin" only means what you think it means if you assume a Platonic interpretation, and Paul's background was more likely to be Stoic - in my opinion.

 

[intricatic]

What I see in contrast is Paul declaring that any deviation from a person's natural orientation is sinful. "Para phusin" only means what you think it means if you assume a Platonic interpretation, and Paul's background was more likely to be Stoic - in my opinion.

That's an anachronism, though. Sexual nature, defined throughout the Bible, is in terms of the archetype of Adam and Eve. Afterall, para phusin is used in other contexts to mean the same thing - inherent nature of the object. Romans 11, for instance, or Romans 2. The fact that he associates it with creation, is enough for me to see the parallel.

 

[Colabomb]

What I see in contrast is Paul declaring that any deviation from a person's natural orientation is sinful. "Para phusin" only means what you think it means if you assume a Platonic interpretation, and Paul's background was more likely to be Stoic - in my opinion.

Is this the arguement that Gays should not have heterosexual sex, and Straights should not have homosexual sex arguement?

If so, the context slays that arguement in about half a second.

 

[Mling]

It seems like both sides are arguing from silence, until we factor in one little thing. The Bible says nothing about homosexuality, but it has plenty to say on love. If you want to argue that love can be inherently sinful, you need some pretty strong evidence for it (love, not lust, not admiration, obsession or fondness, love.)

Arguing from silence that the Bible never says "X" type of love is wrong is perfectly acceptable--we consider the idea that there is an excepetion to the rule, look for it, find no evidence to support that exception, and return to the rule: Love is Good.

Arguing from silence that the Bible never says there isn't an exception, and so whatever exception humans can imagine must be true...well that makes no sense at all.

edit: huh. I think I missed the last page or so of this thread before I posted. Well, it makes sense in some context...somewhere in this discussion.

 

[intricatic]

It seems like both sides are arguing from silence, until we factor in one little thing. The Bible says nothing about homosexuality, but it has plenty to say on love. If you want to argue that love can be inherently sinful, you need some pretty strong evidence for it (love, not lust, not admiration, obsession or fondness, love.)

Arguing from silence that the Bible never says "X" type of love is wrong is perfectly acceptable--we consider the idea that there is an excepetion to the rule, look for it, find no evidence to support that exception, and return to the rule: Love is Good.

Arguing from silence that the Bible never says there isn't an exception, and so whatever exception humans can imagine must be true...well that makes no sense at all.

edit: huh. I think I missed the last page or so of this thread before I posted. Well, it makes sense in some context...somewhere in this discussion.

Heh. The Bible says plenty from a social, historical, and cultural context on the act of homosexuality in general. Love is a wonderful thing, but the actions contrary to the natural archetype designed by God are almost always considered wrong; regardless of whether there is love involved or not.

Now, this is merely the reasoning behind it being wrong; how we, as believers are to treat it is an entirely different facet of the discussion, and I think most people on both sides screw it up a lot.

 

[Mling]

the act of homosexuality

What are you calling "the act of homosexuality?" Can I assume you mean same-sex sexual acts?

That can be any number of acts, though...rape, as described in Sodom and Ghomorrah; Pederasty, as described in much of the New Testament; Pagan worship, as described in Old Testament law; or a loving, spiritual marriage, as described in 1 Samuel, when David left his father and cleaved to Johnathon, and they became one soul, and Johnathon loved David as his own soul. The first couple of acts are certainly condemned, and I am not trying to defend them. But the last one is merely described, with no judgement given either way.

 

[DaveS]

Actually the Bible does quite likely go against the traditional 'Adam and Eve' type love and preferences. Particularly in the interesting case of David and Jonathan in Samuel, this I have not looked to in detail myself although there do seem to be various phrases of interest.
Interesting linky:

http://www.bridges-across.org/ba/faith/jt_add4.htm

Another interesting, if slightly explicit wiki linky (analysis of the three possible points):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_and_Jonathan