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Homosexuality: Right or Wrong? (read pg1)

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]RiSeN[

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John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believe in him shall not perish, but have ever lasting life.

Its so nuts that you would argue about true christians and whos going to hell or not when the bible clearly states in the above passage that all you need to be a christian and to have ever lasting life is to believe in Jesus. It does not say believe and do this this and this, or also don't be gay.

Interestingly enough James says the exact opposite of what you just claimed;

"Nevertheless, a certain one will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works.” You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith apart from works is inactive? Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he had offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? You behold that [his] faith worked along with his works and by [his] works [his] faith was perfected." -James 2:18-22

Your understanding of what is meant by "Believing" is in need of sharpening.
 
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Zecryphon

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Really?

That's a new one.

All I see is cherry picking. The scripture says homosexuals should be put to death, according to some on this forum. Ignore half of the scripture for convenience and judge people on the other half.

Those that want to live by the Old Law must live by the entire Old Law. I've got Jesus.
"Really?

That's a new one."

Not really. It's in there if you wanna find it, I'm sure you'll be able to.

"All I see is cherry picking. The scripture says homosexuals should be put to death, according to some on this forum. Ignore half of the scripture for convenience and judge people on the other half."

You'll find cherry picking of scriptures on both sides of any argument or debate. Does the scripture say that homosexual sex is wrong or not? There's plenty of judging on both sides of this issue. You complain that people judge others for being gay, yet don't say a word when the homosexuals judge the other side for being "anti-gay" and throw out accusations of prejudice and hatred. So apparently judgment isn't the issue here, but who is being judged. You apparently have no problem when the judgment is against the people who disagree with you or say that homosexual sex is wrong. Why is that? Maybe you're a little biased and prejudiced yourself, perhaps?

The bottom line is that everybody's got it rough as a Christian. Everybody struggles with issues of sin. What makes your sin so special?

"Those that want to live by the Old Law must live by the entire Old Law. I've got Jesus."

I do as well. Can we move on now?
 
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OllieFranz

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What good are creative genes in gay people if they cannot pass them on? Gay people die off with no heirs.

I tend to stay out of the scientific arguments on this forum, because I believe that a very strong case can be made from the Bible without regard to genetics or zoology. And that if the Bible had truly forbidden homosexuality in Christians, the case from science would not matter.

But your lack of understanding of nature is appalling! Animals (and people) without direct descendents can still pass on their genes through their siblings' offspring. By helping to raise and protect them, they make sure that they survive and procreate. Social insects (ants, bees, and termites) build whole societies on a single fertile queen and her infertile sisters (workers). Elephant calves are often raised as much by their aunts as by their mothers, etc.

Also, some traits (for example pattern baldness) are mainly evident in males but carried on the X chromosome. These traits are "inherited" from the maternal uncle.
 
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Floatingaxe

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I tend to stay out of the scientific arguments on this forum, because I believe that a very strong case can be made from the Bible without regard to genetics or zoology. And that if the Bible had truly forbidden homosexuality in Christians, the case from science would not matter.

But your lack of understanding of nature is appalling! Animals (and people) without direct descendents can still pass on their genes through their siblings' offspring. By helping to raise and protect them, they make sure that they survive and procreate. Social insects (ants, bees, and termites) build whole societies on a single fertile queen and her infertile sisters (workers). Elephant calves are often raised as much by their aunts as by their mothers, etc.

Also, some traits (for example pattern baldness) are mainly evident in males but carried on the X chromosome. These traits are "inherited" from the maternal uncle.

Yeah, right. Tell that to your doctor. Homosexual siblings die with no heirs. They get to watch the family tree expand without them.

Your understanding of genetics is appalling.
 
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Apollo Celestio

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Yeah, right. Tell that to your doctor. Homosexual siblings die with no heirs. They get to watch the family tree expand without them.

Your understanding of genetics is appalling.
Some people don't care. Having descendants is the least of my concerns.
 
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Floatingaxe

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Well evolution has dealt with over population mainly in the following ways throughout history.

Starvation
Plague
Preditors
homosexuality

Which would you prefer?


It's out of our hands. God creates all He desires to have life. He gives and He takes away.

You forgot a major population thinner: war.
 
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]RiSeN[

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Well evolution has dealt with over population mainly in the following ways throughout history.

Starvation
Plague
Preditors
homosexuality

Which would you prefer?

I would prefer to acknowledge that sin has been and is still the #1 cause of death as stated in the bible(James 1:15) and secondly that there is no such thing as overpopulation as God instructed the first parents to "fill the earth".

Population polarization and government enduced famines do not equate to overpopulation. There are vast areas of unihabited land and the earth produces more than enough food for all many times over. Overpopulation is a myth.
 
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Floatingaxe

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]Fa||eN[;40154722 said:
I would prefer to acknowledge that sin has been and is still the #1 cause of death as stated in the bible(James 1:15) and secondly that there is no such thing as overpopulation as God instructed the first parents to "fill the earth".

Population polarization and government enduced famines do not equate to overpopulation. There are vast areas of unihabited land and the earth produces more than enough food for all many times over. Overpopulation is a myth.


Amen! That command has never been retracted! We are all to be fruitful and multiply, creating more wonderful people for Jesus to save! More kids for the Kingdom!
 
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Phinehas2

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Dear Remmy
Its so nuts that you would argue about true christians and whos going to hell or not when the bible clearly states in the above passage that all you need to be a christian and to have ever lasting life is to believe in Jesus. It does not say believe and do this this and this, or also don't be gay.
Actually I disagree 100% as has been pointed out to you, James writes that faith without deeds is empty. Jesus tells us that if we love Him we will obey His teachings, so I can't see how one can believe in someone and not believe in what they say
 
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David Brider

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I gave up reading at your very first refutation of scripture, sorry. The writer means that if you lie with a man as a man does with a woman---in bed, sexually, as mates, as a married couple, then you commit an abomination in such an act.

If you want to tear apart the Word, rearrange it and reassemble it so that it comes out to mean something palatable to you, then you are changing God's Word--adding AND taking away--and sinning grievously in doing just that alone!

I cannot read further than that.

Firstly, he didn't "refute" Scripture, he offered his interpretation of it.

(Secondly, there's no Scriptural basis for the "Bible = God's Word" equation. And thirdly, the angel's warning in Revelation 22 about adding or taking away words refers to the Book of Life which He'd opened in chapter 20 - not to the Bible.)

Fourthly, if you really believe that adding to or taking away from the words of the Bible constitutes a grievous sin, then let's look at what you've just done. The writer in Leviticus simply talks about "lying with a man as with a woman". Nothing else. It's your interpretation that he means "in bed, sexually, as mates, as a married couple." Have you not just added to the words of the Bible by offering that interpretation?

Just a thought.

David.
 
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davedjy

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Not happening because you don't believe that God can rescue you from your sin. You love it way too much.
Love it way too much? love what? I am just true to myself, and once again, stop resorting to these ad hominem attacks. I don't have opposite sex attraction, so there isn't any "sin" to love. A sin for me would be w/a woman. That isn't the life God had planned for me.

He loves you and wants to freeyou from your sin, so you can have a relationship with Him. What you may think is a relationship with Jesus is not, for there is an impediment in it, a big huge block standing in your way.

I HAVE a relationship with Christ, and I am quite happy with it the way it is. There isn't any stumbling block. You anti-gay arguers are the ones that TRY to set false stumbling blocks in gay and lesbian people's ways. You can say we don't have relationships with Christ all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that we still do. You do not know my relationship with Christ, nor are you qualified to judge it.

Amen! That command has never been retracted! We are all to be fruitful and multiply, creating more wonderful people for Jesus to save! More kids for the Kingdom!

There isn't any proof that we must ALL be fruitful and multiply. There are plenty of heterosexual Christians that choose not to have children. That commandment was written at a time when the earth needed to be populated.
 
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]RiSeN[

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The writer in Leviticus simply talks about "lying with a man as with a woman". Nothing else. It's your interpretation that he means "in bed, sexually, as mates, as a married couple." Have you not just added to the words of the Bible by offering that interpretation?

Just a thought.

David.
So what point was the writer making? Was it the angle at which they were positioning themselves that was sinful? "Thou shalt not be horizontal"?

What you propose is that all meaning be taken away from words.

The list of what can be meant by grouping the words "lying" "with" "a" "man" "as" "with" "a" "woman" in that particular order is exhaustive.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Yeah, right. Tell that to your doctor. Homosexual siblings die with no heirs. They get to watch the family tree expand without them.

Your understanding of genetics is appalling.
Um... homosexuality trait is, apparently, carried on a RECESSIVE gene, or genes. Absolutely nothing to stop it being passed on, and, further FALLEN's analogy to social insects is quite apt... sterile siblings that assist in the greater wellbeing of relatives still contribute to the passing on of familial genes.

Would you like to be directed to more information on this?
 
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Phinehas2

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Dear EnemyPartyII
Um... homosexuality trait is, apparently, carried on a RECESSIVE gene, or genes. Absolutely nothing to stop it being passed on, and, further FALLEN's analogy to social insects is quite apt... sterile siblings that assist in the greater wellbeing of relatives still contribute to the passing on of familial genes.

Would you like to be directed to more information on this
You are assuming homosexuality based on the argument about whether it actually exists apart from someones desire. You really need to justify it before you start referring to it.
There is no consensus of opinon on a gay gene. personally I believe genes may well influence us and if there is a gay gene which causes people to sexually desire someone, there will also be one that causes people to sexually desire the opposite sex and children, still not God's purpose
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Dear EnemyPartyII
You are assuming homosexuality based on the argument about whether it actually exists apart from someones desire. You really need to justify it before you start referring to it.
There is no consensus of opinon on a gay gene. personally I believe genes may well influence us and if there is a gay gene which causes people to sexually desire someone, there will also be one that causes people to sexually desire the opposite sex and children, still not God's purpose
Um... huh?

The general consensus at the moment is that there is, indeed, a heriditary component to homosexual charecteristics, the only serious discussion to be had is to determine what roles environment plays in comparison to genetics, and which genes code for this (almost certainly) polygenic trait
 
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OllieFranz

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Um... homosexuality trait is, apparently, carried on a RECESSIVE gene, or genes. Absolutely nothing to stop it being passed on, and, further FALLEN's analogy to social insects is quite apt... sterile siblings that assist in the greater wellbeing of relatives still contribute to the passing on of familial genes.

Would you like to be directed to more information on this?

Thank you for standing up for my post, but I'm not ]Fa||eN[, and I doubt that he would have made such a post. :wave:
 
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]RiSeN[

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Love it way too much? love what? I am just true to myself, and once again, stop resorting to these ad hominem attacks. I don't have opposite sex attraction, so there isn't any "sin" to love. A sin for me would be w/a woman. That isn't the life God had planned for me.
That your belief is, in your opinion, honest in no way affirms its alignment with God's principles. A racist can be honest in his belief in his race being superior, yet it in no way makes it a reality.

Honesty does not equate to righteousness.


On what authority do you base your knowledge of God's will and principles?


I HAVE a relationship with Christ, and I am quite happy with it the way it is. There isn't any stumbling block. You anti-gay arguers are the ones that TRY to set false stumbling blocks in gay and lesbian people's ways. You can say we don't have relationships with Christ all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that we still do. You do not know my relationship with Christ, nor are you qualified to judge it.

We don't have to say it, Jesus does;
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness." - Matt 7:21-23




There isn't any proof that we must ALL be fruitful and multiply.
"Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.” -Gen 1:28

Has this been accomplished? Not hardly. We have extinct countless species we never even knew existed and there are countless species we have not even discovered.

Has earths population reached its limit? Not hardly. We have ample room in vast uninhabited areas yet to be settled and the world produces more than enough food for all many times over.


There are plenty of heterosexual Christians that choose not to have children.
Bravo, with this line of argument you've just implied that the G/L lifestyle is a choice.


That commandment was written at a time when the earth needed to be populated.
Show me the verse(s) on which your claim is based.

Because all throughout the bible all one sees is that God continually blessed his obedient servants by making them many and like the grains of sand, and verses such as this;

This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of Israel: “I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit [yourself], the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk. O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea. And your offspring would become just like the sand, and the descendants from your inward parts like the grains of it. One’s name would not be cut off or be annihilated from before me.” Isaiah 48:17-19

What a coincidence that the latter part of that verse is EXACTLY what happens to homosexuals and gay couplings, instead of being blessed their name is cutoff, their lineage ended.

"Look! Sons are an inheritance from Jehovah;
The fruitage of the belly is a reward.

Like arrows in the hand of a mighty man,
So are the sons of youth.

Happy is the able-bodied man that has filled his quiver with them.
They will not be ashamed,
For they will speak with enemies in the gate." -Psalms 127:3-5
 
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Floatingaxe

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Firstly, he didn't "refute" Scripture, he offered his interpretation of it.

(Secondly, there's no Scriptural basis for the "Bible = God's Word" equation. And thirdly, the angel's warning in Revelation 22 about adding or taking away words refers to the Book of Life which He'd opened in chapter 20 - not to the Bible.)

Fourthly, if you really believe that adding to or taking away from the words of the Bible constitutes a grievous sin, then let's look at what you've just done. The writer in Leviticus simply talks about "lying with a man as with a woman". Nothing else. It's your interpretation that he means "in bed, sexually, as mates, as a married couple." Have you not just added to the words of the Bible by offering that interpretation?

Just a thought.

David.


No. The interpretation I have given is correct. Those who put a spin on it to help their cause for homosexuality are actually refuting God Himself.
 
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Floatingaxe

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Um... homosexuality trait is, apparently, carried on a RECESSIVE gene, or genes. Absolutely nothing to stop it being passed on, and, further FALLEN's analogy to social insects is quite apt... sterile siblings that assist in the greater wellbeing of relatives still contribute to the passing on of familial genes.

Would you like to be directed to more information on this?


Proof? There is no genetic proof. Stop fantasizing. There is no gene that makes you sin! It's your heart and mind that does that.

Find Christ and renew your mind as the Word of God commands.
 
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