homosexuality is an abomination

[Ben johnson]

The fact that homosexuality exists and is constant in nature is proof that it is natural.

I've heard this, but I've seen no proof of its existence in nature. In certain experiments where animals (such as mice) are subjected to overcrowding and high stress, there has been exhibitted "gender-confusion". When the stress is removed, the animal loses its confusion and is attracted to its opposite. Animals in any case do not have the level of sentience as Humans --- they do not associate great meaning to sex. A couple minutes after the act, they don't remember.

If being gay is a choice, as you say, why would it be so hard to change?

It is so hard because it is not a SIMPLE choice. The single greatest cause of homosexuality is "failure to bond with parents". But that is only one cause; one NATURAL predisposition is "melancholy temperment"; melancholies tend to be artistic, creative --- artists, engineers, architects, hair-dressers, etcetera. (Same-gender-RAPE is also VERY common among homosexuals).

The combination of several of "these "predispositions" creates initial attraction. A first homosexual experience drastically increases the attraction, which leads to a second, which leads to a third.

A cigarette smoker often has trouble quitting; so too illegal drug users --- their problem is ADDICTION. Psychological addictions are no less real than chemical dependancies.

If HS is NOT learned behavior, then there would be NO (zero zip) people professing to be CURED. Yet I have seen many first-hand-testimonials to the contrary. Saw one on TV last week --- he had been homosexual, she had been lesbian; they were happily married, had children, and no longer had same-sex-attraction. A very sweet and intelligent couple. (And YES he fit the "predispositions"...)

I always KNEW California wasn't part of the U.S.!

That's FUNNY!!!

 

[Arikay]

"IC is pretty much dead??? I don't believe that at all. Take the "biogenesis-experiement" "

I assume you mean Abiogenesis.
Abiogenesis is a set of hypothesis and not yet a theory.
Abiogenesis is not part of the Theory of Evolution.
That being said, has IC been pushed back all the way to Abiogenesis?

"but the jump from PRIMITIVE AMINO ACIDS to REPLICATIVE LIFE is PROFOUND."

Profound has no real meaning. Just because something is Profound or complex doesnt mean it must come from god or that it would be practically impossible to happen naturally.

"I doubt that most animals correlate "babies" with the act at all. And animals usually have no interest in sex unless the female is in heat.[/i]"

Any information to back this up?

"RE STATS: It's very difficult to FIND stats on homosexual groups in the first place"

Yes it is. However are you saying that you cant back up the stats you suggested? (that homosexual suicide is the same in San Fran as in the rest of the us)

"call the CDC and ask them the HIV infection rates among heterosexual women --- they will tell you "1 in 800 to 1 in 600". Ask them infection rates in white, black, hispanic --- they have those figures; ask them the infection rate among homosexuals, and they will tell you: "We don't have that information." (Why not?) "We choose not to compile that." It's called, POLITICS!"

Really? Maybe you should look harder, as I did some research and found out many things about AIDS, Gays and the CDC.

•In 2001 the CDC reported that there were 368,971 reported cases of AIDS from "Men who have sex with men" (sure sounds like gay and bi men to me). They also reported that there were 51,293 cases of Men who have sex with men And Inject Drugs.
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/stats.htm#exposure

•San Francisco was third on the list of Cities with most AIDS cases with 28,438. New York City was First on that list with 126,237 Cases.
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/stats.htm#areas

-Speaking of women with AIDS.
•50% of the Worlds AIDS population are Women.
http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm

•Sub Saharan Africa contains 70% of all AIDS cases (29.4 million), and the most common exposure is Heterosexual sex.
http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm

•in Sub Saharan Africa 58% of AIDS cases are Women.
http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm

"And yet, I have heard statistics quoting HIV infection rates among homosexuals to be as high as 1 in 5"

Can you provide statistics for this? As my research says it is much less. Still way too high, but less.

"Random and annonymous surveying provides no incentive to lie about their stats."

Unless they were worried that it wouldnt stay annonymous. If you lived in fear of the people in your area, how trustful would you be?

[Cut to shorten post]

 

[Mom4Christ]

We have argued this point so much and we are never going to come to an agreement. None of us will change our beliefs unless somehow science comes up with some rock solid evidence. Even then...some of us may not change our minds to the truth. I personally will believe that homosexuality is wrong and unnatural and a choice until science proves me otherwise. Are we going to debate until then? If so...this will be an incredibly long post!

 

[Arikay]

Mom4Christ: It will be debated for along time. Im not sure how long you have been here but Homosexual threads are very common on the General Apologetics forum.

I normally dont participate in them but this forum goes slower than GA so I figured I would make some comments.

So far science seems to be leaning towards it being natural (as many people have pointed out here) unfortunatly there are many people who will try to ignore the evidence as long as possible. Many are slow to change, and even slower when it has to do with religion.

Mainly though im here because of debating with Ben.

 

[Mom4Christ]

I have seen many topics about homosexuality, so, yeah, it is a very popylar, controversial topic. It has brought on some heated debates. From my understanding, scientists are trying to disprove anything God-related...creation, homosexuality is not natural, etc. All I can do is have faith in my beliefs. Until we find some legitimate, concrete evidence, I suppose the debates will fly!

 

[Volos]

Originally posted by Ben Johnson

It is so hard because it is not a SIMPLE choice. The single greatest cause of homosexuality is "failure to bond with parents". But that is only one cause; one NATURAL predisposition is "melancholy temperament"; melancholies tend to be artistic, creative --- artists, engineers, architects, hair-dressers, etcetera. (Same-gender-RAPE is also VERY common among homosexuals).

The combination of several of "these "predispositions" creates initial attraction. A first homosexual experience drastically increases the attraction, which leads to a second, which leads to a third.

I stared at your post for some minutes in disbelief. Remind me to never ask your opinions about persons of African decent.

Would you care to provide ANY evidence for these statements?

The above statement came form a book called "THE UNHAPPY GAYS: What Everyone Should Know About Homosexuality" by Tim LaHaye. Recognize the book is nearly 30 years old and the research he cited was conducted when homosexuality was still considered to be a mental illness.

By the way: Opposite-gender-RAPE is also VERY common among heterosexuals. What is your point?

If HS is NOT learned behavior, then there would be NO (zero zip) people professing to be CURED. Yet I have seen many first-hand-testimonials to the contrary. Saw one on TV last week --- he had been homosexual, she had been lesbian; they were happily married, had children, and no longer had same-sex-attraction. A very sweet and intelligent couple.

An interesting series of articles on the failures of “curing” homosexuals” can be found here.
http://www.mabenterprises.com/gaychristians/religious_text/failures1.htm
http://www.mabenterprises.com/gaychristians/religious_text/failures2.htm
http://www.mabenterprises.com/gaychristians/religious_text/failures3.htm
http://www.mabenterprises.com/gaychristians/religious_text/failures4.htm
http://www.mabenterprises.com/gaychristians/religious_text/failures5.htm
http://www.mabenterprises.com/gaychristians/religious_text/failures6.htm.
The articles points out the vast difference between altering someone’s behavior and changing their heterosexual orientation.

I think it would be more realistic to believe that the reason such groups that promote the notion of homosexuality being “cured” has more to do with discrimination against homosexuals than with any argument of normalcy.

A cigarette smoker often has trouble quitting; so too illegal drug users --- their problem is ADDICTION. Psychological addictions are no less real than chemical dependancies.

A rather bad comparison. My mother-In-Law is an alcoholic who recently celebrated her fifteenth year of sobriety. She will be the first to tell you that she is and always will be an alcoholic even though she does not drink. Her behavior is what changed.

 

[Arikay]

Carefull putting god on such a low pedastool.

Creation- Creation Can Not be falsified by science. Creationism, which is an attempt to turn creation into science, can and Has been falsified.
There is a danger linking creationism with god, as it can hurt the belief in god.

Homosexuality- is part of science and life and not god. The fact that your religion seems to not like it, has no bearing on facts.

Science does Not try to disprove anything god related. People try to turn their beliefs and opinions into science and facts and get mad when science says they are wrong. By linking these beliefs to their religion, it appears science is saying their religion is wrong, but it is actually saying their belief is wrong.

Just because you believe it, does not make it truth or fact, to think it does is just setting yourself up for a let down if science proves you wrong.

Also, remember, the bible says the earth is flat and that the sun revolves around the earth.
why are people not getting mad about science going against that?

I have seen many topics about homosexuality, so, yeah, it is a very popylar, controversial topic. It has brought on some heated debates. From my understanding, scientists are trying to disprove anything God-related...creation, homosexuality is not natural, etc. All I can do is have faith in my beliefs. Until we find some legitimate, concrete evidence, I suppose the debates will fly!

 

[Servant77]

If a parent raised their child to be a homosexual, the child would. If the parent never mention homosexuality to your child and, if he/she learns about it, you strictly tell them it's wrong and it's a sin, they won't. It's no disease...

 

[EvolvEarth]

Homosexuality is something that cannot be learned, cured, and sometimes even repress. Christians must realize that the Bible was written by man, not God.

 

[Arikay]

Could you provide evidence to back that up?

As I mentioned before, places that atempt to "fix" homosexuals (often by telling them its wrong and other therapy) have a success rate of under 0.5%. They could end up damaging the person more so then "fixing" them.

Other studies have suggested that without any proding, boys that played with girls toys were more likely to be gay. Suggesting that for some people, they were born that way.

But your right, it's no disease.

If a parent raised their child to be a homosexual, the child would. If the parent never mention homosexuality to your child and, if he/she learns about it, you strictly tell them it's wrong and it's a sin, they won't. It's no disease...

 

[greeneyedgirl]

Being gay isn't a choice and isn't evil like many religions like to say it is. People who haven't taken the time to learn all sides of any issue are uniformed. I ask any of you that think it is wrong to read the letter in the link. The author is a mother who wrote a letter to her son after he commited suicide because he was gay. She wrote it to help with her pain and to help other mothers who are making some of the same assumptions she did.

http://www.virtualcity.com/youthsuicide/news/gay-suicide-mother.htm

 

[Volos]

Other studies have suggested that without any proding, boys that played with girls toys were more likely to be gay. Suggesting that for some people, they were born that way.

Ultimately there is no (none, zero, zip, zilch) evidence for any environmental factors and a direct link to being homosexual. There is no consistent psychological type or temperament, no constant family structure common to gay men and women.
Further there is no evidence that early sexual experiences leads to the formation of a particular sexual identity.

Arikay:
The studies you mentioned have more than a few problems.
First: try to define a girl’s toy as opposed to a boy’s toy or a gender neutral toy. What is the difference between a doll and a stuffed animal? If you classify a Ken doll as a girls toy does it become a boy’s toy if it is dressed in combat fatigues and given a gun? No one can agree on exactly what constitutes what.
Second: define “play” Does tying your sister’s Barbie doll to the railroad tracks count as playing with a girl’s toy? (I personally NEVER did that to my sister’s Barbie)
No one can agree on precisely what play is in the first place.
Third: What percentage of play time being in contact with or playing with a girl’s toy constitutes playing with a girl’s toy.

Does playing with boy’s toys make girls more likely to become lesbians?

No one knows why it happens and I’m not sure it really is all that important to know why it does. Gay people are here, always have been here and always will be here.

 

[wblastyn]

If a parent raised their child to be a homosexual, the child would. If the parent never mention homosexuality to your child and, if he/she learns about it, you strictly tell them it's wrong and it's a sin, they won't. It's no disease...

Of course it isn't a disease.

Homosexuality has nothing to do with what you are taught, it just depends on what genes/environmental triggers you get.

Read the story the poster above mentioned, he wasn't taught anything about homosexualuity and he was gay, so they pretty much destroys that idea.

 

[wblastyn]

Being gay isn't a choice and isn't evil like many religions like to say it is. People who haven't taken the time to learn all sides of any issue are uniformed. I ask any of you that think it is wrong to read the letter in the link. The author is a mother who wrote a letter to her son after he commited suicide because he was gay. She wrote it to help with her pain and to help other mothers who are making some of the same assumptions she did.

http://www.virtualcity.com/youthsuicide/news/gay-suicide-mother.htm

Thanks for posting that. It's depressing seeing people killing themselves because of hateful people in society condemning them for something they have absolutely no control over, how can people claim it's a choice when this happens. I'm sure telling them they are an abomination doesn't help much.

 

[Kyubi-no-Youko]

I've heard this, but I've seen no proof of its existence in nature. In certain experiments where animals (such as mice) are subjected to overcrowding and high stress, there has been exhibitted "gender-confusion". When the stress is removed, the animal loses its confusion and is attracted to its opposite. Animals in any case do not have the level of sentience as Humans --- they do not associate great meaning to sex. A couple minutes after the act, they don't remember.

There have been studies of animals in their natural environment (wild as well as domesticated) that were homosexual. Even some that where strictly homosexual and some that chose to only have one mate (that was the same sex of course)
There have been tons of links posted on the tons of homosexuality based threads about sheep and bonobos and other animals. I'm too tired now to look them up, but I will if asked.

The controlled experiment with the mice you mentioned seems to be faulty. While it does prove it could cause 'gender confusion' among animals, it does nothing to prove homosexual isn't natural. Animals show homosexual behavior and remain homosexual in their natural environments-as said above.

As for the 'A couple of minutes after the act, they don't remember' bit. Lol...I can picture a cartoon involving that...of some animal suddenly stopped and thinking 'why am I so sore...?' heh-I guess you have to be in my head. Ok, enough of that XP

If they don't give much though to the act, there are some that certainly do give thought to the mating. I especially like the mating rituals of many birds...and the slug. and some arachnids.

Anyway. Animals can't make decisions as we can. Therefore they cannot choose to be homosexual. They just are, naturally.

One cannot choose their sexual orientation. It is an uncontrollable, biological reaction to stimuli. Look at your computer screen. Now, become sexually attracted to it. Unless you have a fedish, I doubt you can.

It is so hard because it is not a SIMPLE choice. The single greatest cause of homosexuality is "failure to bond with parents". But that is only one cause; one NATURAL predisposition is "melancholy temperment"; melancholies tend to be artistic, creative --- artists, engineers, architects, hair-dressers, etcetera. (Same-gender-RAPE is also VERY common among homosexuals).

The combination of several of "these "predispositions" creates initial attraction. A first homosexual experience drastically increases the attraction, which leads to a second, which leads to a third.

I've never heard this. Could you provide a link/proof? It has been proven that homosexuality does not come from environmental factors. A child cannot be raised homosexual.

Doubtless there may be cases involving homosexuals as you described, but how do you account for those who lived normal, happy lives-where very close to their parents, where never abused or had early sexual experiences. Basically, were just the opposite of what you described-yet still turned out to be homosexual.

And what about heterosexuals who had such things happen to them and remained heterosexual?


[/Quote]
If HS is NOT learned behavior, then there would be NO (zero zip) people professing to be CURED. Yet I have seen many first-hand-testimonials to the contrary. Saw one on TV last week --- he had been homosexual, she had been lesbian; they were happily married, had children, and no longer had same-sex-attraction. A very sweet and intelligent couple. (And YES he fit the "predispositions"...)
[/QUOTE]

I think Arikay posted something on this earlier that says it better than I can.

I think it may be possible to be a pseudo-homosexual. To have homosexual feelings, but not be homosexual. The same way a pseudo-pregnancy works. You gain weight, have mood swings and sickness and all the symptoms of being pregnant-but you are not. So, there may be some confused people out there. But the rest of us are born homosexual.

And I hate that word "Cured". Like it's a disease...I prefer "Changed". As I've said, I don't mind people who change/want to change. Though it hurts when some of those people do because of fear and lies. It's just no easy task and as of now cannot be done successfully (yes, I'm aware of your example. To me, successfully would mean people who COULDN'T change would be the acception, not people who COULD.)

 

[greeneyedgirl]

I've heard this, but I've seen no proof of its existence in nature. In certain experiments where animals (such as mice) are subjected to overcrowding and high stress, there has been exhibitted "gender-confusion". When the stress is removed, the animal loses its confusion and is attracted to its opposite. Animals in any case do not have the level of sentience as Humans --- they do not associate great meaning to sex. A couple minutes after the act, they don't remember.


If HS is NOT learned behavior, then there would be NO (zero zip) people professing to be CURED. Yet I have seen many first-hand-testimonials to the contrary. Saw one on TV last week --- he had been homosexual, she had been lesbian; they were happily married, had children, and no longer had same-sex-attraction. A very sweet and intelligent couple. (And YES he fit the "predispositions"...)
That's FUNNY!!!

It’s just in my research of the studies provided by various groups with an interest in “curing” homosexuals, the highest were in the 40% range. I’ve not seen any study claiming even a 50% success rate, these studies being supplied by groups believing, as you, that homosexuality can be changed. In addition, the people being cured are typically religious, believe homosexuality is against God’s law; thus highly motivated toward becoming cured. Additionally, I have not seen any follow up studies, checking if they remained straight or reverted to homosexuality. From groups I’ve seen, many of those completing these programs revert to homosexuality. My point is simply that if these groups can’t even claim to cure half the homosexuals under these circumstances, then it seems that homosexuality – regardless of what causes it – is not currently a choice most individuals can make


Here is a link that proves that over 450 different kinds of animals engage in homosexuality.

http://www.saint-thomas.net/html/program/pdf/Animal Homosexuality.pdf

 

[Mom4Christ]

A former good friend of mine is bisexual. (We stopped being friends because she was trying to get with my husband, not because she is bisexual.) Her mom never married her dad, who left her when she learned she was pregnant. I don't know if this woman always felt this way, or what, but after he left her, she dated only women. Most of her friends were gay. So since my friend was born, she was raised around homosexuals.

I know this is just one "case study," but it makes me wonder. She and I are both psych majors. Once while we were talking about our senior thesis papers, she said she wanted to write about the cause of homosexuality, or if it was biological. She had wondered if she was bi because she was raised around gays and that was all she knew. She never thought she was just born that way.

I just thought I'd add this to see what opinions I would get. I know she is only one person out of thousands, but could environment be at least a partial cause?

 

[greeneyedgirl]

I just thought I'd add this to see what opinions I would get. I know she is only one person out of thousands, but could environment be at least a partial cause?

Nobody can "prove" what causes homosexuality and the subject is deserving of its own thread. Many Christian based psychologist have patients that want to change their homosexuality behaviour but they admit treatment will not work for patients that do not want to change. The Gay amd lesbian community like to point out that almost all homosexuals go through a denial stage. They have to confront their fears of being homosexual in a society that condemns it. It is alot harder on homosexuals that are raised in a christian church that condemns it and in some causes teach they will be condemed to hell. Most patients trying to change their sexuality are doing so in responce to their environement. The growing consensus of psychiatrists, psychologists, and medical doctors are concluding that the issue of homosexuality and bisexuality is not a personal decision that one can make. Changing sexual orientation - heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual - is simply impossible.



http://www.qrd.org/qrd/www/rrr/curing.html



Physics majors like to prove free will is impossible in a predetermined universe which of course also proves homosexuality isn't a choice.

http://people.cedarville.edu/Student/s1315659/freewill.pdf

Our environment can influence our predetermination of homesexuality.(belief) As an example:

Being raised in a conservative church or a liberal church can effect our prededetermination

Being rasied in the south or California can effect our prededetermination.

We can use our self determination to change our predetermination of homosexuality .
As an example:

Reading the bible and versus that condemn homosexuality or seeing many contradictions in the bible.

Refusing to get to know a homosexual or having a homosexual as a best friend.


Seeking treatment to be cured from homosexuality or seeking treatment to help accept yourself as a loving person.

 

[YthPastor1182]

Homosexuality is a sin against God. It is clearly stated in His Word. Unrepented sin is worthy of utter damnation. We are to love the sinner, but hate the sin. Just as I am commanded to hate the sin of lying, stealing, and murder, doesn't give me any right to hate the liar, theif, or murderer. To the one's who believe one is born homosexual, may I humbly ask, is one born to be a murderer or do surrounding circumstances turn them into one. Our world is corrupted by sin, and the only way to be redeemed of this corrupt world is to first seek forgiveness of our own participation corruption (daily) and seek to be like Him, isn't that what a Christian is all about, being a Christ-One, or being one like Christ? No way can we be perfect, but we are called to be a holy and called out people.

 

[greeneyedgirl]

Homosexuality is a sin against God.

But that is your opinion and you are not able to prove it. You can quote some versus in the bible that share the same opinion but that doesn't prove what God wants and believes about homosexuality. If one wants to prove what God believes regarding homosexuality they must offer some proof besides what Moses and Paul has taught. You are merely proving that Paul amd Moses believed that and that you believe the Bible is the word of God.
*After reading Arikay's post I realized I should have said that you can show that you "think" Paul and Moses believed that cause many people do interpret it differently *
But as a Christian you face the momunmental task of explaining why Jesus forgot to mention it. You have the momumental task of explaining why you have the right to judge a a man that merely loves another man as going agaisnt God. You have to explain why God made the animals before man and yet many animals are homosexual. You need to really study the cross and determine what part of the lesson at the cross excluded homosexuals

Edited my post to add the bullet hole..*