homosexuality is an abomination

[wblastyn]

Of course it is the non-Christians who are the ones to defend sinful lifestyles. That is not love. If one could accept the sin of homosexuality so easily, I wonder what else they accept.

Once again, we love the sinner, not the sin.

I'm not a non-Christian.

If one could forget to "love thy neighbour" so easily I wonder what else they forget.

Does the Bible really say homosexuality is a sin or do you just want it to?

It seems some people here misunderstand what homosexuality is? Do you think it's like a wild sex orgy with everyone the same gender having wild gay sex? It's not like that, homosexuals can love each other just like heterosexuals.

 

[wblastyn]

In Sodom and gomorrah the men tried to rape the angels, but Sodom had already been judged by God, hence the angels were there to warn Lot to get out of the city. Homosexuality has nothing to do with raping people and if the men wanted to rape the angels is also under question.

Leviticus is irrelevant

Paul was talking about a huge sex orgy or something. Homosexuality has nothing to do with "vile passions" or whatever, they can love each other just as a heterosexual couple loves each other.

There is some evidence that David and Jonathan were more than just good friends. I would post the link but I'm not allowed since the website is "unchristian" or something.

 

[Icystwolf]

But sometimes someone's opinion isn't a fact but is merely an opinion as an example:

Your friend hasn't proven that a homosexual can lead a hetersexual life but he has shown he is a bisexual . You can't even prove that he has remained a practicing heterosexual. There are many married men that sneak around with homosexuals out of fear.
I respect any person's right to pick and choose their friends but if you are going to accuse around 2 or 5 million people of being an adomination against God because they are homosexual than that is clealy showing discrimination. For you to think that there are not any loving homosexuals that love the Lord with all their heart is shortsighted.

Thus his testimony is worth nothing because it contradicts your belief.

He was not bisexual before, he was homosexual then became heterosexual.

Obviously you have no respect for his opinion, and yes it has be validated by local therapists.

Any further details, he didn't tell me...and I probably didn't want to hear it either, but bisexualism was ruled out clearly when he gave the speech.

 

[greeneyedgirl]

No it doesn't :

ho·mo·sex·u·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hm-sksh-l, -m-)
adj.

Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.
.............................................................................................

bi·sex·u·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-sksh-l)
adj.

1. Of or relating to both sexes.
2.
1. Having both male and female reproductive organs; hermaphroditic.
2. Botany. Denoting a single flower that contains functional staminate and pistillate structures; perfect.
3. Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of either sex.
and it isn't my opinion but any old dictionary will clearly prove that he is a bisexual

 

[Icystwolf]

I'm not a non-Christian.

If one could forget to "love thy neighbour" so easily I wonder what else they forget.

Does the Bible really say homosexuality is a sin or do you just want it to?

It seems some people here misunderstand what homosexuality is? Do you think it's like a wild sex orgy with everyone the same gender having wild gay sex? It's not like that, homosexuals can love each other just like heterosexuals.

It is mentioned in the old testiment a bit, but the new testiment, Paul spoke specifically that Homosexuals were not tolerated.

1 Corinthians 6:
8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

What this verse says is that homosexuals that practise homosexuality are offenders. Rape is covered with the words "sexually immoral", hence homosexuality is clearly rejected in the kingdom of God. So it's God that decides who enters, and it's definately not the people who practise homosexuality that enters, nor the adulterers or male prostitutes...

I hope that answers your question

 

[greeneyedgirl]

It is mentioned in the old testiment a bit, but the new testiment, Paul spoke specifically that Homosexuals were not tolerated.

1 Corinthians 6:
8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

What this verse says is that homosexuals that practise homosexuality are offenders. Rape is covered with the words "sexually immoral", hence homosexuality is clearly rejected in the kingdom of God. So it's God that decides who enters, and it's definately not the people who practise homosexuality that enters, nor the adulterers or male prostitutes...

I hope that answers your question

But you are trying to prove what God wants by what you think Paul believed. Some interpret it differently but the point I want to make is why should I believe what Paul or Moses believed about what God wanted or believed over what Jesus taught. Jesus never condemned homosexuality and Jesus taught this:

Luke 24- 25-26

He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?"


Luke is quoting Jesus in the above and Luke added (The author of Luke speaking now)And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

Now there are many ways of interpreting that but if Jesus did say that as Luke says he did then how can I accept what Moses or Paul taught as 100 percent factual about what God believes? Jesus taught that we should “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Jesus taught love and forgiveness and the entire lesson on the cross was about love and forgiveness.

 

[greeneyedgirl]

I started reading "Stealing Jesus: How fundamentalism betrays Christianity" by Bruce Bawer today and it is very interesting. This quote from the book sent a powerful message:

"In Certain parts of the world the word christian has become an embarrassment because it has been aligned with movements which are contary to the loving Christ that is at the heart of our message. I hold my head in shame to hear Jesus's name being affiliated with political movements that isolate, inhibit, and breed hate and discontentment between human beings" Reverend Canon John L Peterson, the secretary General of the Anglican Consultative.
Bruce Bawer believes that Jesus stood for love and forgiveness and apparently so does Reverend Peterson.

 

[greeneyedgirl]

Thus his testimony is worth nothing because it contradicts your belief.

He was not bisexual before, he was homosexual then became heterosexual.

Obviously you have no respect for his opinion, and yes it has be validated by local therapists.

.

* "Clinical experience suggests that any person who seeks conversion therapy may be doing so because of social bias that has resulted in internalized homophobia, and that gay men and lesbians who have accepted their sexual orientation positively are better adjusted than those who have not done so."
- American Psychiatric Association

* "For nearly three decades, it has been known that homosexuality is not a mental illness. Medical and mental health professionals also now know that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be altered. Groups who try to change the sexual orientation of people through so-called conversion therapy' are misguided and run the risk of causing a great deal of psychological harm to those they say they are trying to help."
-American Psychological Association

* "Confusion about sexual orientation is not unusual during adolescence. Therapy directed at specifically changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation."
- American Academy of Pediatrics

* "Most of the emotional disturbance experienced by gay men and lesbians around their sexual identity is not based on physiological causes but rather is due more to a sense of alienation in an unaccepting environment. For this reason, aversion therapy is no longer recommended for gay men and lesbians. Through psychotherapy, gay men and lesbians can become comfortable with their sexual orientation and understand the societal response to it."
-American Medical Association
This isn't my opinion but it is the accepted opinion of the medical field.


"The Pseudo-Science Of Sexual Orientation Conversion Therapy"
Respected psychologist Dr. Douglas C. Haldeman

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/glbt/exgay.htm#

All Sides of The Issue: Healing Homosexuality Through Reparative Therapy"
http://www.metrokc.gov/health/glbt/exgay.htm#

Mission Impossible: Why Reparative Therapy and Ex-Gay Ministries Fail"
http://www.metrokc.gov/health/glbt/exgay.htm#


Just The Facts About Sexual Orientation and Youth: A Primer for Principals, Educators, and School Personnel"

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/glbt/exgay.htm#


Finally Free, Personal Stories: How Love and Acceptance Saved Us from 'Ex-gay' Ministries"
http://www.hrc.org/hrc/publications/FinallyFREE.pdf

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/glbt/exgay.htm

 

[Icystwolf]

But you are trying to prove what God wants by what you think Paul believed. Some interpret it differently but the point I want to make is why should I believe what Paul or Moses believed about what God wanted or believed over what Jesus taught. Jesus never condemned homosexuality and Jesus taught this:

1 Corinthians chp 1, vs 18-31. chp 2 vs 13-16

what paul taught is from the Holy Spirit, which is where Jesus taught from as well. Me and my friends were discussing(and arguing) this as well, initially what I thought was the way you though about it as well, that Jesus' words has much higher priority over Pauls...however on closer inspection both me and my friend turned out to be completely wrong. My friend's idea was that Paul's words was an extension of Jesus' words, but again that was fully contradicting to a lot of what Paul says in his future letters.


Ummm....I think I'll need to PM you on this issue, it's quite a serious issue if you don't quite understand what I'm talking about or what image you should have in your head, there was heaps of pictures drawn up from our conventional minds, but the Bible proved us wrong. The truth is a bit tricky when dealing with these things.

But it's important...otherwise, I'll get my friend to email you on it.

 

[greeneyedgirl]

1 Corinthians chp 1, vs 18-31. chp 2 vs 13-16

what paul taught is from the Holy Spirit, which is where Jesus taught from as well. Me and my friends were discussing(and arguing) this as well, initially what I thought was the way you though about it as well, that Jesus' words has much higher priority over Pauls...however on closer inspection both me and my friend turned out to be completely wrong. My friend's idea was that Paul's words was an extension of Jesus' words, but again that was fully contradicting to a lot of what Paul says in his future letters.


Ummm....I think I'll need to PM you on this issue, it's quite a serious issue if you don't quite understand what I'm talking about or what image you should have in your head, there was heaps of pictures drawn up from our conventional minds, but the Bible proved us wrong. The truth is a bit tricky when dealing with these things.

But it's important...otherwise, I'll get my friend to email you on it.

But if Jesus is the son of God HIS words do take a higher priority over a man. I don't accept a man as having the ability to talk for God but they can love the Lord and have opinions about God. I respect their opinion but I do not accept it as being from God. I could quote verses all day long that are in the Bible that sound very unloving and then you could justify why they are in the bible . But the mere fact that you have to justify the bible says something.

“Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ…” (Ephesians 6:5)


Jesus is the Son of God and I will accept what he has taught as from God. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are the closest I can get to what Jesus taught or what God wants other than prayer. But with prayer I find that God is about love and forgiveness . I get a good feeling inside when I hand a homeless person a few dollars. I feel good about helping a lost kid in the park finding his way to a policeman. etc etc etc. I feel bad inside when I think about all the stupid things that I have done to hurt others. Medical evidence shows homosexuals are born that way and therefore God made them the way they are and it isn't up to you or I to tell God that he made a mistake because Paul said so . I appreciate your desire to Pm over this matter and perhaps we should PM some but for the most part I want to have this converstion in the open for all to see. Not because I don't trust you but because women were able to obtain equal rights during womans suffrage. Blacks had a very long fight to obtain their equal rights. Gays are still fighting for their equal rights and the words "all men are created equal" has no exceptions.

 

[Icystwolf]

But if Jesus is the son of God HIS words do take a higher priority over a man. I don't accept a man as having the ability to talk for God but they can love the Lord and have opinions about God. I respect their opinion but I do not accept it as being from God. I could quote verses all day long that are in the Bible that sound very unloving and then you could justify why they are in the bible . But the mere fact that you have to justify the bible says something.

“Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ…” (Ephesians 6:5)


Jesus is the Son of God and I will accept what he has taught as from God. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are the closest I can get to what Jesus taught or what God wants other than prayer. But with prayer I find that God is about love and forgiveness . I get a good feeling inside when I hand a homeless person a few dollars. I feel good about helping a lost kid in the park finding his way to a policeman. etc etc etc. I feel bad inside when I think about all the stupid things that I have done to hurt others. Medical evidence shows homosexuals are born that way and therefore God made them the way they are and it isn't up to you or I to tell God that he made a mistake because Paul said so . I appreciate your desire to Pm over this matter and perhaps we should PM some but for the most part I want to have this converstion in the open for all to see. Not because I don't trust you but because women were able to obtain equal rights during womans suffrage. Blacks had a very long fight to obtain their equal rights. Gays are still fighting for their equal rights and the words "all men are created equal" has no exceptions.

Yes, I understand what your saying, but what you've said about about Paul's authority under Jesus' authority is ...incorrect. I'll PM you on that soon, because I found it very important in my beliefs in actually accepting Paul's teachings.

Before I was like, yeh, skip pauls letters, Just keep reading Jesus' words. And it sound way cooler!....but thats contradicted from Pauls letters and even Jesus. Again, I'll inform you more on that privately. I think the discussion of this belongs in another thread. So we can get a clearer point for you.

As for the Gays, theres only several states in the US that banns gays. Christians don't punish others, except their own children, for their habits. We usually pray to God about them.

The race distinction was a huge problem, esspecially when the carcasians treated african americans as slaves. And lowered down even lower. Even though ethiopia is like the riches of all Christianity. And even Jesus showed the racism within the jews when they differentiated themselves against the samaritans, and Jesus placed a stop on that. And it's not just black people, yellow people like myself. Back in primary school, I got racial abuse from some teachers as well as other kids. The school was a catholic school...and as far as I knew it, my younger brother and all my chinese friends in there never liked it. And in history, yellow's were treated badly as well, the carcasians pulled over our tea trade and we had the worst depression ever....and they justified it through God.........it's heart breaking...

But as for homosexuality, Jesus never favoured it nor did he challenge what was held up in the old testiment. So the no-gays in the Kingdom of God policy still holds.

 

[greeneyedgirl]

The race distinction was a huge problem, esspecially when the carcasians treated african americans as slaves. And lowered down even lower. Even though ethiopia is like the riches of all Christianity. And even Jesus showed the racism within the jews when they differentiated themselves against the samaritans, and Jesus placed a stop on that. And it's not just black people, yellow people like myself. Back in primary school, I got racial abuse from some teachers as well as other kids. The school was a catholic school...and as far as I knew it, my younger brother and all my chinese friends in there never liked it. And in history, yellow's were treated badly as well, the carcasians pulled over our tea trade and we had the worst depression ever....and they justified it through God.........it's heart breaking...

But as for homosexuality, Jesus never favoured it nor did he challenge what was held up in the old testiment. So the no-gays in the Kingdom of God policy still holds.

Perhaps it would be better for me to allow Jesus to speak for himself. You have stated that it is your belief that Paul had the authority to speak for God and I cannot accept that as proof and offer these quotes from Jesus as my reasons why.:

Matthew 4 - 4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
If Jesus is the son of God then of course his mouth is the mouth of God. That's a pretty obvious conclusion.

Matthew 5 -6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Righteousness:

Morally upright; without guilt or sin:
A righteous act, or righteous quality.

I'm having trouble understanding how telling 2 million homosexuals they are an adomination to God is being righteous.

Matthew 5 -7
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy

But for the sake of argument let's say you are right and they are an adomination to God then here is Jesus asking you to show them mercy , love, and understanding.


Matthew 5-9
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Peacemakers:

peace·mak·er ( P ) Pronunciation Key (psmkr)
n.

One that makes peace, especially by settling disputes.

Peace:

1. The absence of war or other hostilities.
2. An agreement or a treaty to end hostilities.
3. Freedom from quarrels and disagreement; harmonious relations: roommates living in peace with each other.
4. Public security and order: was arrested for disturbing the peace.
5. Inner contentment; serenity: peace of mind.

Matthew 5- 10
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

So a homosexual that is persecuted for righteouness sake is also blessed and going to heaven.


You stated you felt some pain from the discrimination that some people have showed towards race but yet you can't find it in your heart to say God is going to allow a single homosexual into heaven. You think you can condemn 2 million gays to hell because Paul said so.



I can make the bible say whatever I want and so can you. But the only thing that really matters is your heart and the love that you show to others and your sentance about the no gays in the kingdom of God doesn't show much love and forgiveness.

 

[afnospam]

greeneyedgirl

Part of the issue is people like Morrison's religion - that's where they think God is some buffet and they can pick what they like and ignore the rest. 1 Cor 6:9-11 says "9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

If you're involved in homosexual relations or heterosexual relations that ignore God's correction, then you are NOT justified or sanctified by God or the gift in the redemption of Jesus Christ. The prior verse from Matthew is entirley appropriate. To remind people of God's will and soverignity is a great work of love, as God desires all people to be reconciled to Him.

+

 

[tcampen]

"Part of the issue is people like Morrison's religion - that's where they think God is some buffet and they can pick what they like and ignore the rest. "

Gee, I hate to be the first to point this out, but that's precisely what everybody does, including every single Christian. The evidence of this? Well, how else is it possible that two Christians can claim not to pick and chosoe, and just follow the bible, yet have different beliefs about the bible. Neither can simultaneously be right despite their sincere individual belief that they aren't picking and choosing. In fact, both can very well be wrong.

So perhaps one were to take the position "It's not what I want to believe, it's what God says," then anyone who makes the exact same claim, but differs in any way, must necessarily be wrong. What account's for this diversity in religious beliefs?.... Hint: Picking and choosing what they want to believe.

So anyone here who claims to not pick and choose must look at every other Christian in these forums and necessarily proclaim that they all must, at least to some degree. Now isn't that interesting?

 

[kdet]

Well I can see your position to a point but you have to agree that when it comes to the basics God lets us all know exactly what He wants us to do or not do. Nearly every religious body has "thou shall not kill"

 

[greeneyedgirl]

According to the "World Christian Encyclopedia: A comparative survey of churches and religions" there are 34,000 seperate Christian religions in the world. About half, or 17,000, are private churches that do NOT want to be affliated with a demonination. It's because they can not agree on what the bible says and mankind has been fighting about the bible since the canon of the bible(the creation of the bible) They fought for several hundred years over what belonged in the bible. It is a debate that cannot be won because there really are contradictions in the bible.


Some chuches say the bible is the infallible word of God and they explain away any effort to show a contradiction or error.

Some churches say the bible was written by men that were inspired by God but allowed their personal opinion to get the best of them and we should ignore any part of the bible that condone slavery, exhibit religious intolerance, involve the torturing prisoners, treat women as property, and which advocate genocide, sexism, racism, homophobia, etc..

Some churches say the bible was written by men that were capable of making mistakes and also allowed material from nearby Pagan religions into the text.

The debate of the bible has caused a few wars, a few blackeyes, and will not end. If you read the bible for justification to discriminate than you can find it. But does that really make it righteous? We all have to resolve our faith among ourselves but I choose to believe in a loving God that loves everybody the same. A God that loved us so much that he allowed his son to die on the cross for our mistakes. A God that doesn't believe in discrimination and cringes at just the mention of war. A God that is more worried about the war ending in Iraq than he is about who was righteous in the war.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_divi.htm

"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

 

[tcampen]

Yes, good point. I'm all for finding continuity and similarities in religious faiths rather than exclusivity and condemnation.

 

[Philostratus]

Good to point out the Beatitudes, greeneyedgirl! They are exactly relevant to this issue.

Where does Jesus speak out against homosexuality?

Nowhere. Only Paul. Paul ain't Jesus.

 

[Icystwolf]

Good to point out the Beatitudes, greeneyedgirl! They are exactly relevant to this issue.

Where does Jesus speak out against homosexuality?

Nowhere. Only Paul. Paul ain't Jesus.

This topic isn't relevant within this thread. It will be discussed in the Christian forum, mainly because it deals with indepth understanding of the scriptures, rather than moving logic around into an unstructured way.

This thread deals with homosexuality only. The fact that it's written in the scriptures clearly shows a Christians perspective not to accept homosexual lifestyle as part of their practise.
You also have to consider apocrapha from the old testiment as well as other books that wrote on Jesus' account. Jesus' life span is approx 30yrs. There are heaps of other gospels that arn't present within the Bible, as far as I know he does talk about it. But since that gospel isn't compiled in the standard Bible, it makes it harder for me to reference it.

But the issue must be discussed in a formal matter, relating to the whole scriptures and compiling all the words of Jesus to prove Paul's word and work is truely genuine.

As I've said, athesist don't believe in the Holy Spirit nor how the HS works, so having this discussed in this thread is definately not efficient. It would be better to have it discussed at the Christian threads, then if you have any questions, post a new thread discussing it in this section of the forum.

As I've said, the simple assumption may sound right, but at closer inspection and further discussion, to purify the Gold in the fire, the truth about this is revealed. So bear with me, as I start a thread in the Christian forum, and have the more experience Christians discuss it. It's really a fairly difficult concept to understand...

...which is why I believe it can't be done in a mere couple of messages.

 

[greeneyedgirl]

How can someone make a post that says a homosexual is an adomination to God and then claim that it is unfair to use the bible. I will quote whatever part of the bible I want and I don't need your permission oir blessings.