homosexuality is an abomination

Arikay · Jul 9, 2003

A couple things to note,

1) Notice how our friend the thread starter hasnt seemed to come back to respond to the original complains of the post?

2) From looking around, I have found that the statistics for places that supposably "fix" gays is not good. Often having a lower than 1% "success" rate, While sometimes subjecting the "diseased" person to rather horrible treatment.

Jet Black · Jul 9, 2003

CrossMovement said:
Homosexuality for me is not an error it's a repercussion of the past sin and of the behavior of our ancestor. My opinion til it can be prove false

ace, so someone is gay and condembed to be thrown in a pit of fire and brimstone for eternity because someone else ate an apple.

without mentioning the bible and/or scripture, what is actually wrong with it? Being a thief we can explain, it hurts other people. fornication, results in unwanted pregnancy, unloved children etc, and upsets other people. etc. etc. etc.

Icystwolf · Jul 9, 2003

Kyubi-no-Youko said:
You know they have yet to find an 'eye colour gene'. I guess that means eye colour is a choice. Maybe there isn't a homosexual gene. Maybe there are a number of genes in a certain pattern or something that causes it. Whatever the cause/s, science agrees it is biological.

As for changing from homosexual to heterosexual. Sorry, that's impossible. Not that people haven't tried. A person cannot change one's sexual orientation. Think about it this way.

Look at your hand. Now, change it into a pickle.

You can't, right? It is illogical and impossible and downright silly. The same can be said for..ermm..degaying.

You can convince yourself you are now heterosexual, you could even live life as a hetero and be happy as one. That doesn't change your sexual orientation.

Same can be said for the hand-pickle. You could convince yourself beyond the shadow of a doubt that your hand is, in fact, a pickle. Does that make your hand a pickle? No.

It has been proven in studies that 'degaying' has yet to be successful. Fully successful, and is often more harmful than helpful. In such 'succesful' cases, homosexuals admitted to having to maintain homosexual fantasies while having sex with the opposite sex.

Hey, if they find a way that is not harmful and homosexuals really want to change I have nothing against that. The same way I have nothing against a person wanting a sex change. Right now though, whatever the cause of homosexuality may be, it is impossible to change one's sexual orientation completely.

And I think some of you are confusing 'natural' for 'normal' or 'ethical'. Homosexual is natural because it occurs in nature. However, by society's standards it is not normal. At least, by some socities. In others it is accepted and even encouraged.

Just a couple of points, mutations occur in the wild, some that good for the survival of the species, others are just plain self-destructive.

You don't understand the fact is, Christians don't want homosexuals to be self-destructive, but constructive in their involvement in the future, with their genes being able to pass to the next generation just like everyone else. It's fair share. However a Christian must treat a homosexual with respect like a human, whilst clearly not accepting their lifestyle. Our view is no different to one that has sex before marriage, or one that earns money of the cost of many peoples life.

Also another note, a murderer can be helped yet a homosexual can't?

All this reasoning cannot justify any argument until theres scientific proof. Clearly thats just saying a murderer is always a murderer, and we should accept that in our community.

And don't you know that chemicals in our head can be controlled by our thoughts? Which is why placebo effect works. Clearly a pickle is just a plain over exaggerated example. Which is why Doctors are telling recovering patients to meditate.

Currently degaying is not some type of detox program. It's a self relisation of improvement and path taking enlightnment.

If all humans have souls, which all Christians believe in, then homosexuality is not present in the soul. And if all our thoughts come from our hearts, which is our souls, then homosexuality can be extinguished.

But as far as I'm concerned, it's all a choice. A person dosen't have to be gay, if they have gay thoughts, they just need to work harder to get rid of it.

Personally, if the scientific report comes out to show that homosexuals are of genetics. Then it means they should be treated just like the double chromozone people or the genetically defective people, because technically they are gene defective.

Icystwolf · Jul 9, 2003

Jet Black said:
ace, so someone is gay and condembed to be thrown in a pit of fire and brimstone for eternity because someone else ate an apple.

it's not the someone else that ate the fruit of knowledge it's more that we all keep eating it. It's not an apple, else I'd probably bludge all session and eat apples to get a High distinction just before the exam.

As I've stated time and time again, it's a challenge, it's not impossible, but if they want to be Christians, thats what they need to do. Being a Christian needs a lot of sacrifice, if your not willing to do that, then theres no point because your not learning or gaining anything.

It's stated in the Bible, and hence it shall be. No need for people who don't believe dictate us what we should do.

Icystwolf · Jul 9, 2003

Arikay said:
A couple things to note,

1) Notice how our friend the thread starter hasnt seemed to come back to respond to the original complains of the post?

2) From looking around, I have found that the statistics for places that supposably "fix" gays is not good. Often having a lower than 1% "success" rate, While sometimes subjecting the "diseased" person to rather horrible treatment.

1) Yes, I noticed before you posted this post up

2) You might want to check to see that gay being degayed is not documented properley. Most often it's been fudged to an acceptable limit of this societies expected amount.
Send me a worthy site, and let me check it up.

And by the way, gays that were degaied don't usually admit. This guy in church admitted because he wanted to preach to gay people on Jesus, and to help them walk in the path of degai-enment. He did say he knows at least 50, scattered all over sydney churches. And all have started families, so getting them into the statistics is very difficult!

Maybe I should repeat it, getting gay men who are degaied and have started a family is very difficult!

Firscherscherling · Jul 9, 2003

ObjectiveReality said:
Do you even read my posts? I didnt call you ignorant, I called your generalizations ignorant. I didnt call you a fool, I was just making a point that claiming you think yourself to be logical is a moot point because even the greatest fool would do the same. Again, I am sorry you assume everything to be a personal attack against you.

Im sorry, but the opinions of one person does not reflect the opinions of all Christians, Im sorry to tell you we do not all think the same way. I didnt read his entire post but some of his thoughts seemed to be pretty extreme. I am not Catholic but you will find that predominantly among Catholic moral thinkers that they do not believe homosexuality in and of itself to be sinful because they are unsure of how it is caused. Only the actions are considered sinful.

All your arguments are based on generalizations and stereotypes which are by their very definition incorrect. You claim Christians hate gays and all Atheists dont. Therefore, Christianity must be the root of all hate crime. Continue thinking that is logical if you like, but it sounds very ludicrous to me.

Hmm. It wasn't a long post, nor complicated, so why you chose to respond without reading it I have no idea. So I will make it simpler.

Tell me where other than in Christian (we'll use Christian because that is the vast majority in our nation and the most influencial) teachings are people told that homosexuality is an unnatural abomination?

Firscherscherling · Jul 9, 2003

Mom4Christ said:
Have any of you "pro-gay" (for lack of a better word) ever read the Bible? So many above posts tell us that homosexuality is wrong.

There has been NO studies that have proven homosexuality to be an inborn traits. However, there has been many that have proven inconclusive or they cannot find any link that homosexuality is something people are born with.

We have already proven that handicaps and deformities are defects in the genes to you, Draper, who actually compared being born gay to being born with a handicap. How can you even compare the two?

Where is there legitimate information about these so-called studies that prove being gay is something people can be born with?

I do not discriminate against gays. But I also would not choose to be friends with one, work with one, etc. I am trying to live my life to please God and I choose not to add willful sinners into my life. I would not be friends with a drunk, a drug addict, or a prostitute. Or would you call that discrimination as well?

Dear Objective Reality,

This is the Christian reality of which I speak...

The word hate is not used, but the meaning is very very clear.

Firscherscherling · Jul 9, 2003

Philosoft said:
Two cases equals a proof now?

Here's the reality: Most homosexuals remain homosexual throughout their adult lives. A few become heterosexual for one reason or another.

Your interpretation is that the few are the representative truth - that the majority, who remain homosexual, are delusional or willfully countermand natural orientation.

Here's another interpretation: The few who became heterosexual were never homosexual in the first place. They're the ones who chose to engage in homosexual behavior, but they were heterosexual the whole time. Most other homosexuals are innately homosexual.

Now, one of these interpretations is supportable by logic and data. The other is supportable by, "Me and my friend were gay but now we're not."

Actually, bisexuality is a far more logical explanation for "switching".

Firscherscherling · Jul 9, 2003

Icystwolf said:
Personally, if the scientific report comes out to show that homosexuals are of genetics. Then it means they should be treated just like the double chromozone people or the genetically defective people, because technically they are gene defective.

You folks are amazing. You say these things and then say that what you are preaching is love and tolerance. You say them and then say we are making generalizations and sterotypes when we react to them.

It is this sort of passive-agressive BS that is at the root of hatred and intolerance against homosexuals.

I am not asking you to give up your religion. If you want to behave in a Christian manner, then treat all people as your brother. Love them, befriend them and acccept them. Don't just tolerate them and say "I don't hate them but I sure as heck wouldn't have them over for dinner!" If they are sinning, it is they who will answer for it, not you. If you choose to perpetuate intolerance and hatred, it is you who will answer for that, not them.

brie · Jul 9, 2003

I don't understand how people could think that homosexuals would choose that orientation. Why on earth would someone choose to be ridiculed, to be discriminated against, to be shunned, to not be able to get married, to not be able to have children naturally? To me it's simple. I'm a heterosexual and I did not consciously choose to be this way. Nor do I think I could ever change myself and become homosexual.

ObjectiveReality · Jul 9, 2003

so murder could be a Mutation ?? i think pornography , perverted sex , and all the other thing that refer to sin in the sex have generate homosexuality. I did not made myself entirely clear. Disease comes from the past sin it's a consequence of that. Heart problem comes from tabacco and other things.

No, but there is a very large and obvious difference between homosexuality and murder. One is a sexual orientation and one is an action.

It is this sort of passive-agressive BS that is at the root of hatred and intolerance against homosexuals.

Firscherscherling said:
You folks are amazing. You say these things and then say that what you are preaching is love and tolerance. You say them and then say we are making generalizations and sterotypes when we react to them.

It is this sort of passive-agressive BS that is at the root of hatred and intolerance against homosexuals.

I am not asking you to give up your religion. If you want to behave in a Christian manner, then treat all people as your brother. Love them, befriend them and acccept them. Don't just tolerate them and say "I don't hate them but I sure as heck wouldn't have them over for dinner!" If they are sinning, it is they who will answer for it, not you. If you choose to perpetuate intolerance and hatred, it is you who will answer for that, not them.

But you are making generalizations, you for some reason believe that a few people that post on this message board represent the entirety of Christianity....
Im sure there are plenty of Christians that do not like gay people, but I guarantee there are just as many non-Christian homophobes. You seem to think that the only reason for hating gays is because it is sinful. And yet a large majority of people hate gays because they feel threatened.

If you want homosexual acts to be accepted as natural and right by Christians then I can tell you they never will be. Just as murder, stealing, adultery and anything else sinful will never be accepted that way either. Im not comparing any of those sins to homosexual actions, just making a point that anything sinful will never be accepted as right.

However that does not make it right to sow hatred against people who are homosexual which you seem to think is Christianity's one and only goal. I really can't stop you from thinking that, but all of the Christians I know would not act in any of the ways you describe.

Again, a few people that do not seem capable to logic do not represent the whole of Christianity.

Firscherscherling · Jul 9, 2003

ObjectiveReality said:
Im sure there are plenty of Christians that do not like gay people, but I guarantee there are just as many non-Christian homophobes. You seem to think that the only reason for hating gays is because it is sinful. And yet a large majority of people hate gays because they feel threatened.

Threatened by what exactly? It seems to me that there has to be a basis for the fear. There has to be a reason to be opposed to it. Seems to me that the process begins with the unqualified belief that it is wrong and an abomination. The excuses for why, the assertions that it is unnatural and the rest are the justifications for the base belief. I am not sure exactly what threat there is to fear from a lesbian. Can you fill me in?

ObjectiveReality · Jul 9, 2003

Tell me where other than in Christian (we'll use Christian because that is the vast majority in our nation and the most influencial) teachings are people told that homosexuality is an unnatural abomination?

Please show me where violence and hatred are taught anywhere within Christianity...because thats where you are claiming at gay hate crime spawns from right.

And again I have stated time and time and again that many many Christians do not think homosexuality in and of itself is sinful, just homosexual actions.

Icystwolf · Jul 9, 2003

Firscherscherling said:
You folks are amazing. You say these things and then say that what you are preaching is love and tolerance. You say them and then say we are making generalizations and sterotypes when we react to them.

It is this sort of passive-agressive BS that is at the root of hatred and intolerance against homosexuals.

I am not asking you to give up your religion. If you want to behave in a Christian manner, then treat all people as your brother. Love them, befriend them and acccept them. Don't just tolerate them and say "I don't hate them but I sure as heck wouldn't have them over for dinner!" If they are sinning, it is they who will answer for it, not you. If you choose to perpetuate intolerance and hatred, it is you who will answer for that, not them.

As Christians we love them, but we can't accept their lifestyle. Thats something I'm defending highly.

This isn't hatred against homosexuals, it's just the "offensive" barrier that is created to stop any arguments relating to homosexuality.

I personally don't hate homosexuals. I have two friends, phoebe and Alex who are gay, they know where I stand as a Christian. And they know I don't like their lifestyle...thats why they dont talk about it.

ObjectiveReality · Jul 9, 2003

Threatened by what exactly? It seems to me that there has to be a basis for the fear. There has to be a reason to be opposed to it. Seems to me that the process begins with the unqualified belief that it is wrong and an abomination. The excuses for why, the assertions that it is unnatural and the rest are the justifications for the base belief. I am not sure exactly what threat there is to fear from a lesbian. Can you fill me in?

Threatened by the fact that someone of the same sex might be attracted to them. It does not have to have any other basis besides the fact that they don't want to hang around someone of the same sex that might come onto them.

Firscherscherling · Jul 9, 2003

Why don't you answer my questions?

Well, I can start with Leviticus where we are told to kill them.

Then I can go to the Southern Baptist churches I attended as a child where the preacher told us very clearly that the f-a-g-g-o-t-s were abominations.

Then I can go to the conversations I have had time and again with Chhristians who support the same ideas.

Then there are the visits to Louisiana where my wife's family members discuss such matters openly and promote and teach the hatred to their children.

I even remember Christians like Anita Bryant and her very public crusade against gays.

Shall we discuss Jerry Fallwell?

How about our illustrious Senator Santorum, a leader who compared gays to child molesters.

The doctrine teaches it, the leaders teach it, the congregations teach it, the public figures teach it, the politicians teach it, and the folks on this board teach it. You all consider youselves teachers do you not? Part of your purpose is to spread the doctrine, no?

So, again, where outside of religious teaching is homosexuality held out as an abomination?

Again, remove the religious threat, and what about homosexuality is threatening exactly? Do you fear being raped? - because that is not a gay trait. I just don't see the threat of which you speak. What is it?

Arikay · Jul 9, 2003

Hmmm, well you said those funny magic words "worthy site" that really makes me question how much you will believe anything I reply with, since anything you dont like could imediatly be deemed an "unworth site"

However

from http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_exod1.htm
"From the available data, four studies reported a "success" rate during conversion therapy of 0.4%, 0.0%, 0.0 and* 0.04%. That is, conversion therapy has a failure rate in excess of 99.5% during each study."

Icystwolf said:
1) Yes, I noticed before you posted this post up

2) You might want to check to see that gay being degayed is not documented properley. Most often it's been fudged to an acceptable limit of this societies expected amount.
Send me a worthy site, and let me check it up.

And by the way, gays that were degaied don't usually admit. This guy in church admitted because he wanted to preach to gay people on Jesus, and to help them walk in the path of degai-enment. He did say he knows at least 50, scattered all over sydney churches. And all have started families, so getting them into the statistics is very difficult!

Maybe I should repeat it, getting gay men who are degaied and have started a family is very difficult!

Icystwolf · Jul 9, 2003

Firscherscherling said:
Actually, bisexuality is a far more logical explanation for "switching".

What profession do you have, that would allow me to see whether your argument is based on your field of research or by just personal opinions because you emotionally feel it's the truth.

Bisexual is still part homosexual. And let me not, people don't switch, it takes time to change.

Firscherscherling · Jul 9, 2003

ObjectiveReality said:
Threatened by the fact that someone of the same sex might be attracted to them. It does not have to have any other basis besides the fact that they don't want to hang around someone of the same sex that might come onto them.

So you are saying that, because they fear being 'come onto' that hate crimes perpetrators seek out homosexuals in order to victimize them? For example,the guys who killed Sheppard thought they might be come on to. So, they went to a gay bar, pretended to be gay, picked him up, took him out tied him to a post and beat him to death.......

Nathan David · Jul 9, 2003

ObjectiveReality said:
Please show me where violence and hatred are taught anywhere within Christianity...because thats where you are claiming at gay hate crime spawns from right.

And again I have stated time and time and again that many many Christians do not think homosexuality in and of itself is sinful, just homosexual actions.

You answered your own question. Condemning a private non-harmful act for no good reason is teaching hatred.

homosexuality is an abomination

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