homosexuality is an abomination

[draper]

Ummm....no. As far as I know Taoism also condems homosexuals. And also most Muslims also condems homosexuality, don't see you guys complaining to them.

I stand corrected on that.

I, personally, am addressing my posts more to anyone who thinks homosexuality is wrong because of Religion or other reasons. But it seems to be only Christians replying so if a Muslim or someone else wishes to give their Religious perspective on the matter of course I would answer.

And how do you know if God is frowning on them or not? Have you spoken to God? God obviously is against homosexuality, else he wouldn't have destroyed Sodom

Umm, you proved my point. God is against homosexuality (demonstrated by his destroying Sodom), thus it is presumable he frowns upon in.

(I was writing that from a Christian standpoint, I do not beleive God is real)

Excuse me draper, but it's not just one writer in the Bible. Clearly anyone with education standards would realise that a person cannot live over 6000 or 8000 years and hence write the whole Bible.

I was saying that my opinion is that Christianity and the Bible are false and that one person made up the entire Bible. Thus I was arguing that whoever dreamed up Christianity was also homophobic and thus made it a condition of Christianity so whoever joined would need to be homophobic.

Homophobia is not created from Christianity, it's natural for people to be afraid of the abnormal. If a person has a deformed face from birth, unless the people actually know the person, the general instincts makes us fear the abnormal.

So what you're saying is the level headed people are not homophobic, and the ones that are un-sympathetic to the fact that gays were born different from them by no fault of their own are the homophobes? Because it seems to me a lot of people in this thread accept the, umm, "abnormal".

Homophobia existed in China, and was delt with way harsher than any of todays standards. I shouldn't mention the torture the homosexuals suffered, before meeting their deaths.

So? This isn't China and this certainly isn't back when that happened. I certainly hope that that the people of today are smart enough to learn from that and realise that hating over unconfirmed things like Religion is very stupid and ignorant.

 

[ObjectiveReality]

Think about it, whoever made up Religion was pbviously homophobic and decided he'd (or her, God knows who thought up Christianity) include being homophobic in his Religion so that whoever joined his faith would need to be homophobic. And now he has created millions of homopboes who senselessly hate gay people.

Oh please, Id be willing to bet over 99% of Christians are not homophobes. Many may dislike gay people but they are not homophobic. This is the most ridiculous theory I have ever heard and I have a hard time believing that anyone without some sort of twisted anti-Christian agenda could say such a thing.

All major religions teach love and tolerance, do you even think before you speak?

With such radical claims I would expect you to point out a specific religion in which this has occurred.

Any more senseless posts such as this and I won't be returning to this thread.

If you want to argue religion is a contributing factor to anti-gay sentiment...fine but that is ridiculous.

 

[Firscherscherling]

An indentical twin's genes are EXACT. If for some reason they had to have a paternity test because they slept with the same woman and she got pregnant, they would NOT be able to tell who the father is. DNA-wise, they are the SAME person. Identical twins are often closer to one another and treated more equally than non-identical twins. So their environment is almost EXACT as well. If genes were the thing that made someone gay or not, both identical twins would be gay or be straight.

Actually, anyone can look at identical twins and see that they are not exactly alike. No two people are exactly alike. There are always differences, even in twins. Differences in height, facial structure, etc.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

2) You might want to check to see that gay being degayed is not documented properley. Most often it's been fudged to an acceptable limit of this societies expected amount.
Send me a worthy site, and let me check it up.

Yes, "degayed" statistics have been fudged...by organizations whose goal is to "change" homosexuals. They inflate their numbers to seem impressive. They include in "successful conversions" people who have heterosexual sex but have to fantasize about the same sex to do it (still gay), people who abstain from sex altogether but still fantasize about the same sex (still gay), and bisexuals who still have feelings for the same sex but choose not to act on them in lieu of exclusively acting on their desire for the opposite sex (still bisexual). Much of society wants to see these successes, so they ARE "fudged" to an acceptable level that society expects so that they can have their bigotry towards homosexuals justified. Independent studies of such organizations have revealed that the success rate is often 0% and no more than 1%.

Every single medical and behavioral institution in the country agrees on the fact that homosexuality is innate and unchangeable. That's just the way it is and you're going to have to deal with it. We know there are biological differences between heterosexuals and homosexuals observed in humans (and the same differences observed in other animals), and we know trying to "change" homosexuals is futile and can lead to suicide or other mental problems.

Maybe I should repeat it, getting gay men who are degaied and have started a family is very difficult!

That's because people are innately gay.

What you are likely to find are people who were married and started a family because they were taught the bigoted view that homosexuality is wrong. They tried to fit into society but could not exist in that state of denial and had to leave.

 

[Nathan David]

An indentical twin's genes are EXACT. If for some reason they had to have a paternity test because they slept with the same woman and she got pregnant, they would NOT be able to tell who the father is. DNA-wise, they are the SAME person. Identical twins are often closer to one another and treated more equally than non-identical twins. So their environment is almost EXACT as well. If genes were the thing that made someone gay or not, both identical twins would be gay or be straight.

You have an incorrect understanding of genetics.

 

[Nathan David]

All major religions teach love and tolerance, do you even think before you speak?

?!?! Uh, read the newspaper and some history. Many major religions teach a mix of love, tolerance, hatred, and prejudice.

 

[Fiendishjester]

identical twins are not exact, that's why they have different finger prints

 

[ObjectiveReality]

?!?! Uh, read the newspaper and some history. Many major religions teach a mix of love, tolerance, hatred, and prejudice.

You are referring to radical sects within these religions which again is unfair, considering....they are just that....radical. Most Muslims do not support these terrorists actions, although if some do it has more to do with anti-American views than the actual teaching of their religion.

Please show me where in the Koran terrorist action/hate/violence are encouraged.

 

[Mom4Christ]

I may not be a science-whiz, but if you are going to defend homosexuality as a biological trait, then give me some actual evidence other than what you've been giving us. I have not seen any one of you post any studies or facts to support your biological theory. I'm still waiting...

 

[Fiendishjester]

BWAH HA HA HA, and now for my infectious disease like foucault ideas, homosexuality doesn't exist, it's just something made up to give power to what was afterwards created as heterosexualtiy.

 

[Nathan David]

Actually, Mom4Christ, YOU brought up whether homosexuality is something people are born with. To me it's irrelevant to the question of gay rights. Since I see nothing whatsoever wrong with the behavior, it doesn't matter to me where it came from.

 

[ifriit]

I don't dismiss the personal testimony of gay people, I just don't find them acceptable as credible information. It's almost like myself saying I was gay at highschool, but I changed to become a heterosexual.

I fail to see the difference between dismissal and failing to find gay individuals' testimony credible because they are gay.

In truth, I've been single, and been heterosexual...this is the truth. What I said before was a lie.

You've said you were gay? When?

Unless the gay gene has made gay people unable to lie, then yes, I would find their personal testimony as being credible. But how ridiculous does it sound just believing in one source.

Sorry, that first sentence appears self-contradictory--did you phrase that correctly?

So if someone says that, for example, I am a female while I say I'm male, you'd believe both? Neither?

And as for scientific study, they haven't found any gay gene. I haven't seen any deep analysis, of what makes a person gay. If you have a website...but you stated yourself your not interested(at least I'm not making allegations up)....show it to me and prove it. Like one of the pro-homo, who kindly suggested a website which enlightened me of some details that I failed to find previously.

The web is not the be all and end all of information--though it would certainly be nice if it were. You'll find that most of the studies relating to what you are looking for are unavailable or extremely difficult to procure via the web, and I personally am not expert enough to find the data. A few (relatively) recent studies:

Hamer, D. H., Hu, S., Magnuson, V. L., Hu, N., & Pattatucci, A. M. L. (1993). A linkage between DNA markers on the X chromosome and male sexual orientation. Science, 261, 321-327.
Hu, S., Pattatucci, A. M. L, Patterson, C., Li, L., Fulker, D.L., Cherny, S.S., Kruglyak, L., & Hamer, D.H. (1995). Linkage between sexual orientation and chromosome Xq28 in males but not in females. Nature Genetics, 11, 248-256.
Pillard, R. C. & Weinrich, J. D. (1986). Evidence of familial nature of male homosexuality. Archives of General Psychiatry, 43, 808-812.

However, one example from the web is Homosexuality is biological, suggests gay sheep study (New Scientist, November 5, 2002).

And no I don't think all scientists are lying. My younger brother is going to be a scientist in two years time, and a couple of my friends are scientist. However did you get that statement must have been of some manifestation of anger.

Not anger, despair.

If theres a scientific report on what makes a person gay, ie chemical imbalance, or improper chemical creation...whatever....then I'll think of where I'm going to stand. But what ever the case, it's still not accepted in the house of God.

Perhaps your deity is that way, but a number of Christian denominations disagree.

 

[draper]

Oh please, Id be willing to bet over 99% of Christians are not homophobes.

Taken from Dictionary.com:

1 entry found for homophobe.
ho·mo·pho·bi·a ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hm-fb-)
n.
Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.
Behavior based on such a feeling.

Contempt being the key word. It's impossible to dislike gays without bring homophobic, it's the meaning of the word.

Many may dislike gay people but they are not homophobic.

Umm humm...

This is the most ridiculous theory I have ever heard

Cool, the most ridiculous theory I've ever heard is that being gay is a choice.

and I have a hard time believing that anyone without some sort of twisted anti-Christian agenda could say such a thing.

Come on now, even if I did have an anti-Christian agenda, which I don't, after seeing the **** in this thread and the horrible excuses Christians come up with to consider gay people sinners, who could blame me?

All major religions teach love and tolerance,

Right, which is why I think Christians are easily the biggest hypocrites around town because they teach love and tolerance yet go out and dislike gay people for being born a certain way.

do you even think before you speak?

I think you would mean before I type. And to answer your question yes I do, quite thoroughly actually, I go to Dictionary.com to look up words I do not know the meaning of and to check definitions of other words to make sure I am right.

With such radical claims I would expect you to point out a specific religion in which this has occurred.

Christianity. I know of a Christian in real life - I don't directly communicate with her, thank God, who hates gay people in every sense of the word and considers then disgraceful.

Any more senseless posts such as this and I won't be returning to this thread.

That would be a blessing in disguise because I wouldn't need to keep explaining myself over and over again....

If you want to argue religion is a contributing factor to anti-gay sentiment...fine but that is ridiculous.

Umm, well I can count about 10 different people who have posted in this thread alone who would not be homophobic with out religion.

I may not be a science-whiz, but if you are going to defend homosexuality as a biological trait, then give me some actual evidence other than what you've been giving us. I have not seen any one of you post any studies or facts to support your biological theory. I'm still waiting...

I already posted a link. But I just did a quick search and this article could be helpful:

http://www.lawrenceville.org/special/thelawrence/98/02_13_98/10.html

Actually it doesn't look very helpful. I may post a better link later but why don't you go to www.google.com or www.yahoo.com and post your findings for us?

 

[goldylock]

You don't need long-post and the re writing of the bible.God gave us a brain and He showed us how to use it.Unnatural sex is wrong .You know it I know it And the people doing it know it.We were put on this earth to reproduce so we could glorify God.Flowers animal birds and fish go to the opposite sex.We are humans and are suppose to be smarter.You can't glorify God by doing freaky stuff.

 

[Firscherscherling]

Turns out you all were right. Homosexuality is actually caused by rear-end collisions:

http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~wilkins/science/causal_studies.html

 

[ifriit]

Flowers animal birds and fish go to the opposite sex.

Actually, no, they don't always. Flowers don't go anywhere; they're plants. Birds, fish, and other animals, on the other hand, have a relatively proportional amount of homosexual activity as compares to human beings. You can observe homosexual activity with most species.

 

[ObjectiveReality]

I will say this. Homophobia extends beyond dislike. To be in a state of contempt is to be despised which is right up there with hatred.

Otherwise Draper, most sincerely you are not worth my time.

I am really glad you know of one Christian who hates gay people, but while your at it, you should probably make that 50 or 60, it would go well with the rest of your wild conspiracy theories..

 

[Firscherscherling]

I will say this. Homophobia extends beyond dislike. To be in a state of contempt is to be despised which is right up there with hatred.

Otherwise Draper, most sincerely you are not worth my time.

I am really glad you know of one Christian who hates gay people, but while your at it, you should probably make that 50 or 60, it would go well with the rest of your wild conspiracy theories..

Many of us see little credibility in statements from those of you who say you love gay people while making statements about them being unnatural, abominations, posessed by demons, liars, perverts (all staments in this thread)

These sites are all perfect illustrations of Conservative Christian Organizations working hard every day to see that gay people are condemned and persecuted. Have a look for yourself. Someof these are major organizations, some more fringe but with similar messages of hatred.

Conservative Christian groups promoting restricted rights for homosexuals:
Alliance for Traditional Marriage (Hawaii)
American Family Association
Americans for Truth About Homosexuality
Center for Reclaiming America
Christian Family Network
Christian Coalition
Citizens for Community Values
Concerned Women for America
Coral Ridge Ministries
Exodus International
Kerusso Ministries
Liberty Counsel
Mission America
National Legal Foundation

I have to assume that all of these Christian groups LOVE homosexuals. The following Christian groups love homosexuals so much they would like to see them killed just as the Bible says.

Organizations promoting the death penalty for sexually active homosexuals:
Society for the Practical Establishment and Perpetuation of the Ten Commandments, at: http://www.tencommandments.org/
Citizens for the Ten Commandments at: http://www.hom.net/~angels/deathpenalty.html
Coalition on Revival, a Christian Reconstructionist movement. See: http://www.ifas.org/fw/9101/radical.html
The Society for the Promotion of Reformation in Government, at: http://www.spring-ni.com/downloads/title3e
Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) of Topeka, KS. See: http://www.godhates****.com

 

[Kyubi-no-Youko]

Icystwolf: If you are willing to accept the testimony of a man who was gay then turned straight, then surely you will accept the testimony of a woman who is gay, knows she was born that way, and has no reason to change--unless she is pushed to do so by society.

That woman? Me.

If you read my posts, you'll noticed I have no problems with gays wanting to change or even heteros wanting to change. However, right now that is impossible to do completely. One can live the life and go through the motions, but they cannot change their sexual orientation.

I live a fairly peaceful and productive life. I'm a law abiding citizen and do not live a dangerous, perverted lifestyle. In fact, I consider myself quite conservative (as opposed to radically liberal).

Then there is the issue of people being scared of gays coming on to them.

Ok... Let me make a comparison.

Let's say there is a cookie on the table.
Let's say I'm hungry
Let's say I want to eat the cookie.

It is natural for me to be hungry and the natural reaction is for me to eat something (in this case, a cookie). Does that mean I HAVE to eat the cookie? Of course not.

Now, replace cookie with woman, hungry with attracted to, and eat with come on to...(though the wording may have to be changed a bit)

Just because I see a woman I am attracted to doesn't mean I'm going to come on to her. We do have self control, you know.

And if people are that worried, I'd think they'd be afraid to even go out of the house. What with the fact that we dress and act just like the rest of you...you never know, you're best friend could be gay without your knowledge. The teller at the bank could be gay. Anyone could. And they could all be thinking about coming on to you.

And if a gay person does come on to you, you could politely say 'not interested'...if they are rude, slap 'em in the face. Same thing I imagine you'd do if someone of the opposite sex came on to you and you didn't want them too.

 

[Kyubi-no-Youko]

Now...on to the 'natural' 'unnatural' debate.

The issue isn't (or shouldn't) be whether it is natural/innate or not. It is a question of ethics and morals. And those morals/moral standards are controlled by society.

Let me give an example. In the animal kingdom some animals (like lions and rabbits) each their own young to get the female/s to produce more. Is this natural? Yes. Is it moral. By most human standards, it wouldn't be. We were raised knowing eating children was wrong. However, if we were raised knowing eating children was ok or even if the Bible said it was Ok, we'd have no problem doing it. Either way, it would still be natural. Sickening and immoral, maybe, but natural. Or.. Perfectly acceptable and moral, but still natural.