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Homosexuality - Here I stand.

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LightHorseman

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I'm confused, i thought we agreed...
We do. But you askerd for a healthcare professional's opinion, seemed a good time to mention I am one. Well, a qualified one, anyway, not actually working as one at the moment, but I got the degree and the registration, if that counts for anything. One11's stoney silence suggests that she would prefer to believe that somehow MRSA is some sort of heinous, homosexual perpetrated, faecal vectored plot against school children, so I'm trying to save everyone some time by accepting that hey, she probably knows more about it than I do.
 
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david_x

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We do. But you askerd for a healthcare professional's opinion, seemed a good time to mention I am one. Well, a qualified one, anyway, not actually working as one at the moment, but I got the degree and the registration, if that counts for anything. One11's stoney silence suggests that she would prefer to believe that somehow MRSA is some sort of heinous, homosexual perpetrated, faecal vectored plot against school children, so I'm trying to save everyone some time by accepting that hey, she probably knows more about it than I do.

Gottcha.

(She may have just signed off for the night too, it's almost 12 here.)
 
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LightHorseman

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Gottcha.

(She may have just signed off for the night too, it's almost 12 here.)
Maybe. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt, but some recognition that HIV doesn't spread through faecal matter might be nice.


Hey... maybe MRSA migrates on coconuts?
 
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david_x

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Maybe. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt, but some recognition that HIV doesn't spread through faecal matter might be nice.


Hey... maybe MRSA migrates on coconuts?

More likely the African Swallow, but then again they're non-migratory.
 
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one11

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*headdesk* MRSA is not a "new" disease, it is an antibiotic resistant strain of Staphlococus Aureus, also known as "golden staph". Like HIV and AIDS, it has NOTHING to do with faecal matter, nor does it spread through the use of public restrooms.

Hospitals have had all of their employees washing their hands after using the toilet for quite some time now, pretty much since Pasteur and Lister.

Well, I'll trust the Federal Disease Control, Sir. I just spent about 15 minutes and it says the best way to prevent the spread of MRSA is to wash your hands period, and especially after using the toilet. Also, the spread of MRSA leaving hospitals and nursing homes and spreading to schools, gyms, jails, etc... has to due with lack of cleanliness and improper hygiene. Hospital workers are dying from this. Some may get cured, but MRSA is not a laughing matter. Wash your hands after using the toilet or face getting fired. The Feds are getting a bit agressive about this period and you are in the U.K. with socialized medicine, so I don't know when you would receive such an order from your government.

http://fcs.tamu.edu/health/healthhints/2007nov/mrsa.php

While MRSA and staphalecacous bacterias can be deadly, I was more referring to E.coli which can produce deadly diseases and is found in fecal matter. As a matter of fact when I just researching on MRSA, I came upon an E.coli resistant disease that is now being looked into. E.coli lives in fecal matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli
 
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one11

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And this was written about AIDS in 8/2008. The reason AIDS was/is spread more through anal is due to the lack of lubrication which tears fissures (breaking open blood by the tearing), and what I told you is the truth about Islamic countries believing that penile/vaginal sex is for their wife only, but using prostitutes when they are away from their wife for a long time when trying to find work or to monies these men use prostitutes but only will have anal intercourse with a prostitute. However, it's still spreading mostly through anal sex because of the lack of natural lubrication and the tearing of the fissures.

  • vaginal sex
  • anal sex
  • oral sex (very low risk, see below)
Vaginal and anal intercourse: For the receptive partner (the "bottom"), the mucous membranes of the anus and vagina are very efficient routes into the bloodstream. HIV may also enter either through routine, minute tearing caused during intercourse (which is often unnoticed).
Anal sex is riskier than vaginal sex, because the membranes are thinner, tearing happens more easily, and there is no natural lubrication. But both are efficient routes for the virus.
It is speculated that for the penetrative partner (the "top"), HIV may infect through the mucous membranes in the meatus (the opening of the urethra). It is believed that uncircumcised men may be at greater risk for HIV for a variety of reasons. For instance, they may not have been told how to correctly use a condom. Because an uncircumcised man has a foreskin and a circumcised man doesn't have a foreskin, each has to put on a condom differently. Uncircumcised men must pull back on their foreskin before rolling on the condom. Neglecting to pull back the foreskin may make condom failure more likely, although no clear evidence supports this idea.
Uncircumcised men having unsafe sex may be at greater risk if HIV infected fluid remains under the penis' foreskin for an extended period of time. The shelter afforded by foreskin may give HIV a more favorable environment in which to survive. The protected area under the foreskin might help shield HIV from air and keep it closer to body temperature.
Oral sex (mouth-penis, mouth-vagina): The risk from oral sex is very minimal as the mouth is an inhospitable environment for HIV, for several reasons. Saliva contains enzymes that break down the virus; also, the skin of the mouth is sturdier than in the anus or vagina. There are, however, a few documented cases where it appears that HIV was transmitted orally. These cases are all attributed to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] in the mouth (i.e., exposure to sperm, not exposure to vaginal fluid or pre-seminal fluid).
Receiving oral sex is not risky because one is exposed only to saliva.

http://www.sfaf.org/aids101/transmission.html#sex_trans
 
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david_x

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ONE11 i'm sorry but you will not prove that homosexuality is wrong with that argument. Disease are spread through sex, this means you should not have premarital sex. It is a fair argument against promiscuity, not homosexual sex.

Sry.
 
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HaloHope

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ONE11 i'm sorry but you will not prove that homosexuality is wrong with that argument. Disease are spread through sex, this means you should not have premarital sex. It is a fair argument against promiscuity, not homosexual sex.

Sry.

Exactly. STD's are a risk to anyone who is promiscous, sexuality irrelvant on the matter.

Case in point I'm gay, I've slept with one person, she was my first and only partner and I hers. Zero risk of an STD there.
 
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one11

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ONE11 i'm sorry but you will not prove that homosexuality is wrong with that argument. Disease are spread through sex, this means you should not have premarital sex. It is a fair argument against promiscuity, not homosexual sex.

Sry.

I'm not trying to prove anything. Posters have asked for sources. I can't quite recall the channel I saw the documentary on AIDS in Africa and their particular "sexual" beliefs, but I think it was CNN and I'm going to have to go through those archives, so I am presenting to posters some evidence.

I, for one, find the Leviticus laws of cleanliness amazing in such a primitive peoples and primitive times and the Hebrews were the ones to "listen". I don't believe God gives laws for no reason.

Now promiscuity causing STD's. Hmmmmm? I am a product from the 60's Love Generation and it was have sex, sex, sex. As a teenager I was involved with promiscuity and have never had an STD (this was in the 1970's) and so were all my sisters and cousins, no STD's. So was my ex husband. Heavily involved with music scene, signed to two record deals in the 1970's and probably had sex with hundreds of women, no STD's. None of us praticed safe sex. And these are studies of strictly penile/vaginal intercourse as the Love Generation of the 60's which still existed in the 1970's were a strictly heterosexual community engaging in heterosexual sex promiscual sex but yet were disease free. We are lucky in that we never got STD's (all my family and friends of that time) but promisual sex doesn't necessarily cause STD's either (?)

And whether promiscual or not, doesn't take away the facts that bacterium live and thrive in the colon and anus, which can sometimes be fatal.

I also brought up my points that homosexuality has caused no one harm, which is a gay chant practically. And I say, yes homosexuality has caused great harm, DEATH. People are dead period. Bacterium in the colon cannot just be laughed away nor be viewed with immaturity.
 
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Texas Lynn

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BECAUSE of their idolatry God gave them up TO their vile affections...the affections/desires themselves ARE vile/sinful.
...In Romans 1:26 above we see that these were turned over to 'vile affections'.

No we don't. We see Paul, or someone writing and and claiming to be Paul in manner of sorts, claiming that, with no evidence to support it.

These were given over to these vile affections, and what does the scripture show that these 'vile affections' were being defined as ?
It is VERY clear that burning with lust for those of the same gender and acting out on that lust is what this 'vile affection'...otherwise the statement has no meaning.

That's just wishful thinking.

Homosexuality is a sin and therefore the gay christian needs to abstain from that sin. To WILLFULLY continue in it would seem to lead one into the predicament mentioned in Hebrews 10.

There is no sin whatsoever in homosexuality. Persons of minority sexual orientations who act as such affirm themselves and their love and as such when this is done WILLFULLY they commit the highest honor possible to themselves, their partners, and to God.

...the ACTS themselves are shown as
-unclean
-dishonour
-vile
-unseemly
-error

Not including anything remotely acceptable as "evidence" for such uninformed opinions. All we have here is willful ignorance in the form of superstitous ancients and confused moderns.
 
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LogosRhema

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The debate has been raging across the boards for some time now and I have added my oar into the heady mix from time to time. Perhaps I should make my position somewhat clearer.

It worth remember that the debate about 'homosexuality' is more a debate about how one interprets the Bible. Those who stand on their claim that the Bible is literal will never be convinced on anything - they have already made up their minds. For the rest of us who use the Bible in order to shape our lives and to sustain our hope I offer these thoughts.

Point 1. Scientifically, we now know that HIV Aids did not originate within the homosexual community - it originated in the heterosexual community in Africa where its scourge remained masked by the myriad of other miseries that plague that continent. It was only when the virus was 'discovered' in a 'Western' country, the US, that it was even noticed and, unfortunately, it was 'noticed' in the gay community. Immediately, the so-called Church of God blamed homosexuals and levelled their full barrage of hate in that direction. Anyone who raised a different opinion was drowned out. Homosexuals have been living with the fall-out ever since. (Aids and Compassion (1988) edited by Dr. Jim McPherson).

Point 2. Sodom was not destroyed for its homosexuality. Isaiah cites justice as the issue (Isa 1:10, 3:9). For Jeremiah it was adultery, lying and avoiding repentance (Jer 23:14). Ezekiel thought pride, comfort and gluttony where its downfall (Eze 16:14). The Book of Wisdom mentions foolishness (10: 8) and hatred of strangers (19:14) as the reasons. Sirach thinks it was their arrogance (Sir 16:8). Jesus mentions Sodom (Matt 10:15, 11:23-24, Mark 6:11, Luke 10:12, 17: 29) but makes no reference as to what caused its downfall. None make mention of homosexuality as the reason. The real problem with Sodom was it idolatry - its belief in itself that it could do whatever it wished. It could slake any desire, provide for any want - that's was its sin - it set itself up as god. (And herein lies a clear message for a self-indulgent West).

Point 3. The only claim in the Bible that homosexuality could have been the reason for Sodom's destruction comes in Jude 7. But Jude was written in about 80 AD and after one Philo of Alexandria (d. cira 50 AD), a Jewsih philosopher and writer living at the time of Paul, had claimed that Sodom's sin was homosexuality. It was Philo, the only Jewish writer from antiquity that made the first claim which, in all probability, influenced later authors like Paul and Jude.

Point 4. Paul certainly mentions homosexuality as a sin but it might be worth looking at the cultural with which the early believers were surrounded.

The Roman world had come into peace under Tiberius after years of civil wars. Pax Romana bought rest and wealth to a land weary of internal fighting. Tiberius was hailed as hero and was proclaimed Augusta - God with us. The Roman Empire now spanned many cultures and one was the Hellenised Greek culture - a culture that worshiped the human body. (The Olympic Games were held nude - well, at least for the athletics). This aesthetic influenced spread to Rome and coupled with the Emperor cult and the general peace and wealth enjoyed by the citizens, together with the practice of Temple prostitution and blood sports, resulted in a culture that was in love with itself - idolatry. This was the sin Paul was concerned with - the worship of the human body as god and the practice of self-indulgence. Paul was concerned to make separate his 'believers' from a population that worshipped 'self'.

Point 5. We come 'loaded' with the beliefs of the past - even the faulty ones. It is hard to throw off what we have been taught. Yet, we need to examine that past and see it for what it is - a sketchy and ambiguous kaleidoscope of images that are biased towards particular agendas. Yet, it seems clear there is no overwhelming prerogative that the Bible teaches homosexuality is a sin. Clearly there is some ambiguity at best. But what the Bible does teach time and time again is the sin of self-indulgence - where such self-indulgence becomes self-worship. That's our error - worshipping ourselves.

I have a prayer, I saw it somewhere and it stuck. 'God, thank you for not making me wealthy that I forget you nor so poor that I have to steal'. The West, and the Church, faces bigger problems than homosexuality - the problem of over indulgence.

Hey bud.

That prayer is from Proverbs. One of my favorites.

As far as homosexuality, you have not really deemed your position on it as a sin from what I can comprehend here.

My stance: We are all with sin and so long as we are all working at our faith then I don't see the point in arguing. There are certain sins that God has to deal with. Be it homosexuality or arrogance. I think we spend too much time looking at each others specks in our eyes and never look in the mirror.

OH well. The humans will continue to be human, until the human allows Christ to intervene.
 
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LightHorseman

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Well, I'll trust the Federal Disease Control, Sir. I just spent about 15 minutes and it says the best way to prevent the spread of MRSA is to wash your hands period, and especially after using the toilet. Also, the spread of MRSA leaving hospitals and nursing homes and spreading to schools, gyms, jails, etc... has to due with lack of cleanliness and improper hygiene. Hospital workers are dying from this. Some may get cured, but MRSA is not a laughing matter. Wash your hands after using the toilet or face getting fired. The Feds are getting a bit agressive about this period and you are in the U.K. with socialized medicine, so I don't know when you would receive such an order from your government.

http://fcs.tamu.edu/health/healthhints/2007nov/mrsa.php

While MRSA and staphalecacous bacterias can be deadly, I was more referring to E.coli which can produce deadly diseases and is found in fecal matter. As a matter of fact when I just researching on MRSA, I came upon an E.coli resistant disease that is now being looked into. E.coli lives in fecal matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli

*head desk head desk head desk* Yes I KNOW that washing your hands prevents the spread of MRSA, my point is that it has nothing to do with faecal matter, nor does the HIV.

And yes, E.Coli CAN make people very sick and ill, and it DOES live in faecal matter... But you have to actually eat it to get sick from it. Its not like the flu.
 
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LightHorseman

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I also brought up my points that homosexuality has caused no one harm, which is a gay chant practically. And I say, yes homosexuality has caused great harm, DEATH. People are dead period. Bacterium in the colon cannot just be laughed away nor be viewed with immaturity.
No, no no NO NO! Homosexuality doesn't harm ANYONE. Unsafe sex practices harm people, kill millions, no question. But homosexuality is NOT the same as unsafe sex.
 
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one11

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There is certainly nothing to support this at all. That's like saying wishing it causes one to win the lotto.

There is evidence to support this. Also, some Africian and Islamic beliefs are that anal sex is not seen as adultery and also that it cannot produce a child. Producing a child for Allah is seen through vaginal/penile intercourse only and thus this sex is sacred for one's wife only.

Research focusing on the effects of beliefs of susceptibility to AIDS indicates that adolescents and adults who report high perceived risk for AIDS practice safer sexual behaviors, whereas those who perceive low risk for contracting AIDS report practicing unsafe sexual behaviors (Gray & Saracino, 1989; Villarruel et al., 1998). However, in a study of health behavior in Kenya, perceived susceptibility to AIDS was not a significant predictor of condom use (Volk & Koopman, 2001). According to the authors of this study, the failure of perceived susceptibility to predict behavior most likely resulted from participants’ misconceptions about the origins and transmission of AIDS. For example, some participants reported the belief that anal sex was a safe alternative to vaginal sex (Volk & Koopman, 2001). For these individuals, misconceptions, or lack of accurate knowledge about AIDS, resulted in inaccurate assessments of susceptibility. In this way, it seems that perceived susceptibility must be coupled with accurate knowledge in order to bring about behavioral change.

http://www.westafricareview.com/vol3.2/uwalaka-matsuo.html
 
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LightHorseman

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There is evidence to support this. Also, some Africian and Islamic beliefs are that anal sex is not seen as adultery and also that it cannot produce a child. Producing a child for Allah is seen through vaginal/penile intercourse only and thus this sex is sacred for one's wife only.

Research focusing on the effects of beliefs of susceptibility to AIDS indicates that adolescents and adults who report high perceived risk for AIDS practice safer sexual behaviors, whereas those who perceive low risk for contracting AIDS report practicing unsafe sexual behaviors (Gray & Saracino, 1989; Villarruel et al., 1998). However, in a study of health behavior in Kenya, perceived susceptibility to AIDS was not a significant predictor of condom use (Volk & Koopman, 2001). According to the authors of this study, the failure of perceived susceptibility to predict behavior most likely resulted from participants’ misconceptions about the origins and transmission of AIDS. For example, some participants reported the belief that anal sex was a safe alternative to vaginal sex (Volk & Koopman, 2001). For these individuals, misconceptions, or lack of accurate knowledge about AIDS, resulted in inaccurate assessments of susceptibility. In this way, it seems that perceived susceptibility must be coupled with accurate knowledge in order to bring about behavioral change.

http://www.westafricareview.com/vol3.2/uwalaka-matsuo.html

All very interesting, however, you'll note that nowhere in the article cited is there any mention that homosexuality nor anal sex CAUSE HIV.
 
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