Homosexual dileverence is possible!

[BigChrisfilm]

Thank you!

No problem.

 

[davedjy]

Let's rephrase this statement.

You cannot say that homosexuality is okay with God, and be correct.

I don't believe you are correct either, so it doesn't matter what you think, that doesn't change God's opinion.

 

[davedjy]

That is what temptation wants you to see.

Jessica, there is absolutely nothing you can say that will change my opinion. It has nothing to do w/temptation, it has to do with the Holy Spirit revealing the truth, that contradicts contrived, biased translations and pure BS doctrine as well as old Church habits and beliefs.

If you think I'm living in sin, just pray! The more prayer I get, the more I stand grounded and rooted in my beliefs!

I'm praying God changes your heart on this subject, too.

 

[Jessica Lauren]

Jessica, there is absolutely nothing you can say that will change my opinion. It has nothing to do w/temptation, it has to do with the Holy Spirit revealing the truth, that contradicts contrived, biased translations and pure BS doctrine as well as old Church habits and beliefs.

If you think I'm living in sin, just pray! The more prayer I get, the more I stand grounded and rooted in my beliefs!

I'm praying God changes your heart on this subject, too.

The thing is, I was in your EXACT place a few months ago... for years. I totally understand what you're trying to say. I don't think it just has to do with the scriptures, although that plays a HUGE part in it. It has to do with what is natural. I believe part of what got me was how we were created. Pardon my words, but a Vagina and a Penis fit perfectly. It is as simple as that. They could be old Church beliefs but that does NOT make them incorrect. God wanted a man and WIFE to become... not a woman and a woman or a man and a man.

I am very glad you are praying about this, as did I. I just came out grounded in the opposite side of the belief spectrum on this matter.

Temptation and Satan are very powerful... anyone can see that in their own lives everyday.

 

[davedjy]

The thing is, I was in your EXACT place a few months ago... for years. I totally understand what you're trying to say. I don't think it just has to do with the scriptures, although that plays a HUGE part in it. It has to do with what is natural. I believe part of what got me was how we were created. Pardon my words, but a Vagina and a Penis fit perfectly. It is as simple as that. They could be old Church beliefs but that does NOT make them incorrect. God wanted a man and WIFE to become... not a woman and a woman or a man and a man.

I am very glad you are praying about this, as did I. I just came out grounded in the opposite side of the belief spectrum on this matter.

Temptation and Satan are very powerful... anyone can see that in their own lives everyday.

I don't ever argue Design intention...instead I argue that as a result of sin, there was defect that came into the world (not just temptation). It is clear that our bodies were designed a certain way, but I am not convinced that there is a way they cannot be used if done in love and not lust (of course, unless hurting another person).

Non-procreative sex in heterosexuals is practiced all the time, so it is clearly obvious, that sex has more than one function and use. Condoms and birth control would be against "natural order" as well in Biblical times, as there were commandments back then to be fruitful and multiply...and women were an inheritance, and their virginitiy was more of a prize possession than anything else.

Is there a way you want me to believe that God created condoms and birth control? That He "intended" for people to use those? nonetheless, it is yet another "human form of control" that people use to contracept natural order. Not that it means it's wrong!

 

[Jessica Lauren]

I don't ever argue Design intention...instead I argue that as a result of sin, there was defect that came into the world (not just temptation). It is clear that our bodies were designed a certain way, but I am not convinced that there is a way they cannot be used if done in love and not lust (of course, unless hurting another person).

Non-procreative sex in heterosexuals is practiced all the time, so it is clearly obvious, that sex has more than one function and use. Condoms and birth control would be against "natural order" as well in Biblical times, as there were commandments back then to be fruitful and multiply...and women were an inheritance, and their virginitiy was more of a prize possession than anything else.

Is there a way you want me to believe that God created condoms and birth control? That He "intended" for people to use those? nonetheless, it is yet another "human form of control" that people use to contracept natural order. Not that it means it's wrong!

Yes, sex does have more than one function. To bring a man and wife closer.

A woman's virginity IS a prized posession. Not to say "woohoo I got a Virgin! Go me!" but it is something that is a great thing to have... until you're married. As for women being an inheritance, I believe that is one of those things that are taken out of context. You know how some people take one verse without reading the rest of it and come to some sort of conclusion? Sort of like when people are hateful against gays and don't seem to read the other verses that say we all sin and to not judge.

As for the birth control/condom thing, many don't believe in those EITHER. As for myself, I believe sex is for marriage and Birth Control does stop the natural process that God intends for, unless they're being used for other medical purposes. I'm not totally sure about condoms yet.

 

[davedjy]

Yes, sex does have more than one function. To bring a man and wife closer.

A woman's virginity IS a prized posession. Not to say "woohoo I got a Virgin! Go me!" but it is something that is a great thing to have... until you're married. As for women being an inheritance, I believe that is one of those things that are taken out of context. You know how some people take one verse without reading the rest of it and come to some sort of conclusion? Sort of like when people are hateful against gays and don't seem to read the other verses that say we all sin and to not judge.

As for the birth control/condom thing, many don't believe in those EITHER. As for myself, I believe sex is for marriage and Birth Control does stop the natural process that God intends for, unless they're being used for other medical purposes. I'm not totally sure about condoms yet.

If a person changed their opinion on stopping birth control, does that change the way God sees it?

Same logic with homosexuality, with condoms, with who is truly saved or not, what Christ sees as sin, etc.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Yes, sex does have more than one function. To bring a man and wife closer.

A woman's virginity IS a prized posession. Not to say "woohoo I got a Virgin! Go me!" but it is something that is a great thing to have... until you're married. As for women being an inheritance, I believe that is one of those things that are taken out of context. You know how some people take one verse without reading the rest of it and come to some sort of conclusion? Sort of like when people are hateful against gays and don't seem to read the other verses that say we all sin and to not judge.

As for the birth control/condom thing, many don't believe in those EITHER. As for myself, I believe sex is for marriage and Birth Control does stop the natural process that God intends for, unless they're being used for other medical purposes. I'm not totally sure about condoms yet.

Woman were also Chatel in the Biblical days. But property to be owned.

 

[Jessica Lauren]

If a person changed their opinion on stopping birth control, does that change the way God sees it?

Same logic with homosexuality, with condoms, with who is truly saved or not, what Christ sees as sin, etc.

God would still see it as bad. This doesn't mean a homosexual is not saved, it just means they've sinned just like everyone else.

Woman were also Chatel in the Biblical days. But property to be owned.

OT or NT are you taking this from?

 

[davedjy]

God would still see it as bad. This doesn't mean a homosexual is not saved, it just means they've sinned just like everyone else.


OT or NT are you taking this from?

Well, I believe that God either made gays the way they are, or it is as a result of some defect in wiring, but either way I don't believe He sees it as sin.


As for your OT and NT claim, Paul clearly condoned slavery in the NT, and women were unfairly mistreated in both the OT and NT. Voting in early Church times was forbidden for women, as well...they were NEVER equal to men!

 

[Jessica Lauren]

Well, I believe that God either made gays the way they are, or it is as a result of some defect in wiring, but either way I don't believe He sees it as sin.


As for your OT and NT claim, Paul clearly condoned slavery in the NT, and women were unfairly mistreated in both the OT and NT. Voting in early Church times was forbidden for women, as well...they were NEVER equal to men!

Then how have some overcome it? And I mean truly, truly overcome it? I mean, honestly, no one knows what God thinks right now. We can only use the Bible... and I suppose that is how we interpret it.

We are unequal in a sense. Well, we are equal, but we have different roles. That's how I see it, and once again I think it is possible that people are not looking at the bigger picture with the slavery thing. But hey, that's just me.

 

[davedjy]

Then how have some overcome it? And I mean truly, truly overcome it? I mean, honestly, no one knows what God thinks right now. We can only use the Bible... and I suppose that is how we interpret it.

We are unequal in a sense. Well, we are equal, but we have different roles. That's how I see it, and once again I think it is possible that people are not looking at the bigger picture with the slavery thing. But hey, that's just me.

I don't believe there is a such thing as "overcoming" your sexual orientation. I don't believe even true "healings" change the way God sees something as sin or not, either.

There is no bigger picture with the slavery thing! It was clearly condoned and instructed on how to go about. Some also say the whole Bible is God-inspired, which I know to be false. Would God want us to stone to death a rape victim who didn't cry out for help? Would God want a rape victim to be forced to marry her attacker for life? (Deut.) Would God want marriage to be about inheritance (all throughout the Bible), or would He want it to be about love and unity?

The BIGGER picture is seeing what Christians choose to cherry pick out of the Bible as being wrong "for those times", and that are OK for these times. It is blind ignorance, IMHO, to see this as anything other than discrimination and cherry picking other things out and condemning the behavior of a minority group.

It reminds me of that verse Jesus said: "By your traditions, you make null and void the Word of God".

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I skimmed enough of BCF's initial cut and paste to see that there were several factors of the story that are not really part of what most of us mean here...


Yes, as a result of trauma, abuse, or neglect, people can display homosexual behaviours which, when they recieve appropriate counselling and intervention, are lessened or even abandoned.

However, while people who have such histories of abuse are deserving of great sympathy and any help available to them, to assume that there is any sort of cross over between people who display homosexual traits as a result of trauma, and people who are NATURALLY gay, is flawed.

 

[davedjy]

I skimmed enough of BCF's initial cut and paste to see that there were several factors of the story that are not really part of what most of us mean here...


Yes, as a result of trauma, abuse, or neglect, people can display homosexual behaviours which, when they recieve appropriate counselling and intervention, are lessened or even abandoned.

However, while people who have such histories of abuse are deserving of great sympathy and any help available to them, to assume that there is any sort of cross over between people who display homosexual traits as a result of trauma, and people who are NATURALLY gay, is flawed.

I agree -- great post!

I'm glad those changes occur, which in many cases are because of molestation and unnatural bonding w/their same sex parent... BUT THEY DON'T EXPLAIN THE REST OF US WHO NEVER WERE SEXUALLY ASSAULTED OR NEGLECTED BY OUR SAME SEX PARENT.

Is everyone forgetting that psychologists and psychiatrists used to think ALL homosexuals were sexually assualted, mistreated or neglected by their same sex parent?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Then how have some overcome it? And I mean truly, truly overcome it?

Check the stats... there are many homosexuals who have been taught to loath themselves to the point they abandon any attempt to find hapiness, and live a life of monastic desperation... there are others who, similarly, are pressured into renouncing their natural orientation, usually by church groups, who "claim" to be cured, just to find acceptance...

But the fact is, most homosexuals who try reparitive therapy never change their orientation, and those few that do, almost always lapse, which suggests that the "cure" was not that effective in the first place.

There may be a few people who never really were homosexual who believe that RHT worked for them, there are anecdotes to this effect, but I am unaware of any evidence...

So, from the available stats, something like 90% of people who attend RHT sessions find it ineffective, and of the 10% who claims it changes them, nearly all relapse.

In my experience, although I know many people who have undergone RHT, I have never met a single straight person who was once homosexual and "cured" by any sort of intervention

 

[BigBadWlf]

Well, Christ wasn't gay, so you should become more like him.

Jesus didn’t justify hating people just because they were different…

Maybe you should take your own advice.

 

[davedjy]

Jesus didn’t justify hating people just because they were different…

Maybe you should take your own advice.

Yes, He also wouldn't quote biased translations of Scriptures... I'm sure He also wouldn't call gay sexual relations in "abomination", esp. after knowing how many OTHER physically unclean things were an abomination in Leviticus...

 

[BigBadWlf]

Check the stats... there are many homosexuals who have been taught to loath themselves to the point they abandon any attempt to find hapiness, and live a life of monastic desperation... there are others who, similarly, are pressured into renouncing their natural orientation, usually by church groups, who "claim" to be cured, just to find acceptance...

But the fact is, most homosexuals who try reparitive therapy never change their orientation, and those few that do, almost always lapse, which suggests that the "cure" was not that effective in the first place.

There may be a few people who never really were homosexual who believe that RHT worked for them, there are anecdotes to this effect, but I am unaware of any evidence...

So, from the available stats, something like 90% of people who attend RHT sessions find it ineffective, and of the 10% who claims it changes them, nearly all relapse.

In my experience, although I know many people who have undergone RHT, I have never met a single straight person who was once homosexual and "cured" by any sort of intervention

I don't think there is any "lapse" per say. When you look at the individuals making claims that they changed form completely homosexual to completely heterosexual they are all employed or have incomes dependant on some ex-gay ministry or organization..

Further when you look at the people who once claimed to have made such a change but later recanted they all say the same thing, that they never changed sexual oriention, that they lied and could no longer bare laying to people about this.

My research has found a "success rate of less than 1%

Drs. Michael Schroeder Ariel Shidlo found that many examples of physical, sexual and emotional abuse by 'ex-ay' therapists as a means of forcing their clients to lie about their conversion.
"Ethical Issues in Sexual Orientation Conversion Therapies: An Empirical Study of Consumers" published in " Sexual Conversion Therapy: Ethical, Clinical and Research Perspectives" Edited by Ariel Shidlo, PhD

 

[SilentShout]

To everyone who does not believe God can change their orientation needs to relook at their beliefs. I see in here, that "You can't change your sexual orientation" and blah blah, but trust me. YOU CAN. I am only 16 years old. I was sexually abused as a child, and I believe this confusion set off my desires. I used to pray so hard that God would take this away from me, that he would give me peace. One day my mother came into my room and found letters of mine that had things in them that any pagan or heathen ( ) would write. She confronted me about my feelings, I told her I was homosexual. After many breakdowns later I can tell you after praying and praying I no longer am trapped by the sin that DESTROYED my life. Please believe me, I pray that the Holy Spirit would just touch your hearts and believe. God can do amazing things, God can do anything! Even change sexual orientation. To say something as silly as "I don't think someone can change".... Your basically saying, " They have no hope, they will burn in hell". I have lost all my "Friends" because of my decisions especially telling them of what happened when I accepted Jesus. And I can tell you, I've never been happier with my one true Best Friend, and his name Is Jesus. So, I hope you all believe what I tell you, many christians today live in this destructive sin, and think there is no hope, but there is, and I hope The Lord makes it clear to them.

Thanks, and sorry for my rant. I'm not trying to be mean or anything.

 

[davedjy]

To everyone who does not believe God can change their orientation needs to relook at their beliefs. I see in here, that "You can't change your sexual orientation" and blah blah, but trust me. YOU CAN. I am only 16 years old. I was sexually abused as a child, and I believe this confusion set off my desires. I used to pray so hard that God would take this away from me, that he would give me peace. One day my mother came into my room and found letters of mine that had things in them that any pagan or heathen ( ) would write. She confronted me about my feelings, I told her I was homosexual. After many breakdowns later I can tell you after praying and praying I no longer am trapped by the sin that DESTROYED my life. Please believe me, I pray that the Holy Spirit would just touch your hearts and believe. God can do amazing things, God can do anything! Even change sexual orientation. To say something as silly as "I don't think someone can change".... Your basically saying, " They have no hope, they will burn in hell". I have lost all my "Friends" because of my decisions especially telling them of what happened when I accepted Jesus. And I can tell you, I've never been happier with my one true Best Friend, and his name Is Jesus. So, I hope you all believe what I tell you, many christians today live in this destructive sin, and think there is no hope, but there is, and I hope The Lord makes it clear to them.

Thanks, and sorry for my rant. I'm not trying to be mean or anything.

Sexual abuse does not = sexual orientation. An unhealthy relationship to men does not mean you were gay.
You are the examples of people who are straight, but are looking for male love, which is not a valid gay person, like the rest of us, who were never abused and had father figures.


You don't go to hell for being gay anyways, I don't know what you think you are proving here, statistics alone prove you wrong.