Homosexual behavior due to genetics and environmental factors

[Washington]

But surely, that was just a typo by the Levitican author, wasn't it?

I'm sure it was. After all, just think how easy it would be to mistakenly write arba ("4" in Hebrew) for shesh ("6" in Hebrew). And do it twice in a row no less.

 

[Maren]

I agree that satan is a trickster, but in some ways I tend to think homosexuality is a sort of bondage. Pretty much any disorder or spiritual affliction involves a defect of character (ie genes) + some sort of environmental/social triggers.

For example, I am an alcoholic. I have an addictive personality, but I wasn't always a full-blown addict until I went through some hard times in gradeschool and started turning to the wrong places to 'solve' my problems. I've been told that once I started drinking it was almost inevitable that I would become an alcoholic. I was susceptible to it because of my personality, problems at home and other environmental triggers, ect. led to the addiction. This is not to say it wasn't my choice to drink and abuse the way I did, for that I hold myself accountable.

I'm sorry, I just can't see the comparison here. For you, you had to start drinking before the addiction kicked in. For gays, they know they are gay long before they start having any type of sex. Further, they do not feel a compulsion to have sex that is in anyway comparable to the need alcoholics feel to have alcohol.

Now, I had this old friend from highschool. He always had a more feminine personality (he didn't act gay, he just talked kind of like a girl sometimes). When he was a kid his dad used to rough up his mom and he had to stand up for his mom most of the time. Some of my other friends have said that was when he 'started' to change. After highschool he dated a couple girls, few years ago found out he came out of the closet. Like you said, childhood abuse must've contributed to it.

Yet not all gays are abused as children. Further, what connection does physical abuse have to do with sexual orientation? If he had been sexually abused, I might be able to see some type of connection -- though even then you have the problem that the majority of homosexuals were not abused by either parent. It is about like saying you became an alcoholic because your mom bought you Legos as a child.

But I think the personality traits were there in the first place, it just took some environmental factors to bring them out. Of course, there has to be some sort of choice along the way I would think.

And what reason do you have that there must have been some type of choice along the way? Can you tell me when you decided to be attracted to the opposite sex? And why, if there is choice involved, do such a small percentage seem able to change (one researcher touted by ex-gay groups concludes that likely no more of 3% of gays can change their sexual orientation)? Your theory just does not seem to work.

 

[KCKID]

Like you said, childhood abuse must've contributed to it.

MUST have contributed to it ...? Please don't say that. That's psychology speaking. The 'experts' like to put everything into a neat little package and present it as fact. YES, while it IS possible that 'abuse' (that must be the most bandied-around word in the English language) may well contribute to all manner of future 'disorders' it is NOT a GIVEN that all or most such future 'disorders were the result of 'abuse'. By the way, I'm not implying that homosexuality is a 'disorder' but am merely attempting to make a point.

But I think the personality traits were there in the first place, it just took some environmental factors to bring them out. Of course, there has to be some sort of choice along the way I would think.

Hmmm . . .I believe you could have a very valid point about 'innate tendencies' that may or may not be 'triggered' by environmental factors. That might therefore suggest that ALL or MOST of us could become 'whatever' based on environmental factors, circumstances, situations, etc.

 

[MarkSB]

MUST have contributed to it ...? Please don't say that. That's psychology speaking. The 'experts' like to put everything into a neat little package and present it as fact. YES, while it IS possible that 'abuse' (that must be the most bandied-around word in the English language) may well contribute to all manner of future 'disorders' it is NOT a GIVEN that all or most such future 'disorders were the result of 'abuse'.

I never said that it was a given. I merely presented one example, to the pattern that there are certain characteristics in one's personality, and then environmental factors enter into the equation as well. But people still have a choice as to how they respond to these things in their environment. That doesn't mean they choose to be gay, but they choose certain responses perhaps, ect. Not pretending to be an expert I'm just relaying my observations.

Hmmm . . .I believe you could have a very valid point about 'innate tendencies' that may or may not be 'triggered' by environmental factors. That might therefore suggest that ALL or MOST of us could become 'whatever' based on environmental factors, circumstances, situations, etc.

No it wouldn't. Like I said people can make certain choices and everybody's personality is different, has different weaknesses, ect. This again is not saying it is the way in which it always occurs.

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to get at, if you're saying that all gays are gays from birth or what. In my friend's case that didn't seem to me to be what occured - but I don't really know as I never talked to him about it.

 

[MarkSB]

I'm sorry, I just can't see the comparison here. For you, you had to start drinking before the addiction kicked in. For gays, they know they are gay long before they start having any type of sex. Further, they do not feel a compulsion to have sex that is in anyway comparable to the need alcoholics feel to have alcohol.

I don't think D knew he was gay until he reached a certain point. Again maybe I'm wrong because I never asked him. But he dated girls in highschool and before that. He seemed to be attracted to girls and to me it didn't seem like he was faking.

Yet not all gays are abused as children. Further, what connection does physical abuse have to do with sexual orientation? If he had been sexually abused, I might be able to see some type of connection -- though even then you have the problem that the majority of homosexuals were not abused by either parent. It is about like saying you became an alcoholic because your mom bought you Legos as a child.

Lego's hardly have an effect on a child's character and upbringing. Physical or other abuse can have some impact on a child - emotionally and spiritually. That doesn't mean it has to, I'm saying it can. Others had made the observation that my friend changed when he went through some traumatic events during gradeschool. What he went through sounded pretty heavy so I would think it had some affect on him. As to the extent of it I don't know.

And what reason do you have that there must have been some type of choice along the way? Can you tell me when you decided to be attracted to the opposite sex? And why, if there is choice involved, do such a small percentage seem able to change (one researcher touted by ex-gay groups concludes that likely no more of 3% of gays can change their sexual orientation)? Your theory just does not seem to work.

I don't know, maybe once it's out it's out. I'm an alcoholic and now always will be. When I took the first drink I didn't say to myself "I think I'll be an alcoholic." I thought, "Yeah, let's get drunk." Then "yeah, let's get drunk again." Before I knew it I was hooked and it became the solution for all my problems.

Maybe if I had said - "no, that's illegal, and I'm not going to do it" or "I'm not going to get drunk to forget about my problems" ect., perhaps I would have come to look at alcohol in a different way. Perhaps my character would have developed differently, perhaps not. But I do think our choices play a role in who we become.

For gays, maybe it's different because like you say sexual attraction seems to be more innate. But I don't think it means it's always that way from birth. In my friend's case maybe his father being a bad role model had something to do with it. I dunno. Or maybe it's that way from birth and he was just hiding it.

 

[Maren]

I don't think D knew he was gay until he reached a certain point. Again maybe I'm wrong because I never asked him. But he dated girls in highschool and before that. He seemed to be attracted to girls and to me it didn't seem like he was faking.

Many people are confused about sexual orientation early on. They have been told being homosexual is "evil", their friends joke about homosexuals (using words that I can't repeat here instead of homosexual) and how they'd beat up any guy that hit on them, etc. So, for some gays they never consider they could actually be gay; sure they know they think that some guy is cute but they lie to themselves they are just noticing the guy is good looking, not that they are actually attracted to him.

And even when they realize their gay, if they didn't realize it all along, they still pretend -- and they do pretend well. They have grown up hearing off-hand comments (that people will often say they weren't serious when they said it) about how gays deserve to die and they'd beat up any gay guy around them, etc. So there is real fear in admitting they are gay. In particular, they are afraid their friends will not understand and they will lose all of their friends (and we know how powerful peer pressure can be in junior high and high school).

So yes, most gay teens become good actors, they feel they can't afford to let people know that they are gay. While this is improving as society becomes more tolerant, it is still extremely difficult. This becomes even more pronounced when the gay person (and/or his/her family) is religious. Sometimes they go so far as to marry a woman. It doesn't mean they aren't actually gay, rather they've heard all the claims that being gay is a choice and an addiction; so they figure if they pretend they aren't gay they will be able to choose not to be gay anymore. At some point, however, gays realize that they can't choose to change, that they are gay and they have to be true to who they are.

Lego's hardly have an effect on a child's character and upbringing. Physical or other abuse can have some impact on a child - emotionally and spiritually. That doesn't mean it has to, I'm saying it can.

Yes, abuse typically does change a child. I have a friend that has a major Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) because of physical abuse by her mother. And we can show how there are typically certain disorders that are caused by abuse, such as PTSD. What we have no evidence of is that homosexuality is caused by abuse.

Others had made the observation that my friend changed when he went through some traumatic events during gradeschool. What he went through sounded pretty heavy so I would think it had some affect on him. As to the extent of it I don't know.

I'm sure he did change -- and I'm sure that most of what changed are that others noticed the signs that a child typically develop from being abused and symptoms of depression, anxiety, and PTSD. But again, there is not evidence that shows children become gay because they were abused.

I don't know, maybe once it's out it's out. I'm an alcoholic and now always will be. When I took the first drink I didn't say to myself "I think I'll be an alcoholic." I thought, "Yeah, let's get drunk." Then "yeah, let's get drunk again." Before I knew it I was hooked and it became the solution for all my problems.

But again, you had a drink, then you drank again. In your own words, you became "hooked". But for homosexuals, including what you describe with your friend, he didn't try homosexuality first. Rather, you admit that he tried to be straight, that he dated girls, etc. So if sexual orientation was an addiction it seems that it would be women he would be addicted to. Rather, he knew he was attracted to men even before he "tried" men.

Maybe if I had said - "no, that's illegal, and I'm not going to do it" or "I'm not going to get drunk to forget about my problems" ect., perhaps I would have come to look at alcohol in a different way. Perhaps my character would have developed differently, perhaps not. But I do think our choices play a role in who we become.

And I think you do some interesting thinking here. Perhaps had you been raised in a home where drinking was discouraged or completely banned (perhaps a good Baptist home or a Mormon home), perhaps you never would have become an alcoholic.

By contrast, a child born in a religion that teaches him or her that homosexual sex is wrong, but they will still feel the attraction even while acknowledging that homosexual sex is wrong. Of course, one of the huge problems here, especially with people who claim the orientation is also a sin, the homosexual will also begin to believe they are "evil" because of their attraction and their inability to rid themselves of that attraction.

For gays, maybe it's different because like you say sexual attraction seems to be more innate. But I don't think it means it's always that way from birth. In my friend's case maybe his father being a bad role model had something to do with it. I dunno. Or maybe it's that way from birth and he was just hiding it.

The best evidence right now is that if their is a environmental aspect to homosexuality that it occurs in very early childhood -- typically while still a toddler. There are also the studies in animals that show hormones applied to a fetus at a particular stage of development can change the sexual orienation of the animal -- which seems to be relatively strong evidence that homosexuality is biological.

What seems to possibly fit the facts, however, is that some are homosexual from birth while some others aren't "fixed" at birth, and there is some factor in the first few years of life that fixes the orientation. And then others, the group that can change orientation, where for some reason their orientation never becomes fixed. What currently makes the most sense to me is a genetic cause, but not a "gay gene". There is research now about markers on the gene; it appears it may be a combination of these markers (about 250 of them) that determine sexual orientation and sexual expression. Should this research pan out, it would help explain why some people have malleable sexual orientations, and why most are hardwired as to sexual orientation. Further, it would explain why some homosexual men act "femme" and others act like normal guys; why some lesbians act "butch" and others are called "lipstick lesbians"; and why some straight men are somewhat "femme" and some straight women are somewhat "butch".