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Homosexual agenda

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by rapturebaby, Dec 17, 2002.

  1. Havoc

    Havoc Celtic Witch

    +88
    Pagan
    For the same reason one should not discard the KJV simply because King James was a homosexual.
     
  2. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

    +15
    Christian
    "loss of religious fundamentalism."

    Hmm..so government should regulate this huh?
     
  3. Starscream

    Starscream Well-Known Member

    +43
    OH - MY - GAWD!

    You mean to tell me that those dirty queers want to rent an apartment and get a job?  What?!  They want health benefits too!  Not on my watch!
     :rolleyes:


    My thoughts cannot be properly displayed here without bringing upon my banment.  But I will say I think this hateful drivel is disgusting.

    It's remarkable how vile people that have promised themselves to an all-loving God can be towards others that are different.
     
  4. PastorFreud

    PastorFreud Lie back on the couch.

    +173
    Protestant
    Yes, it is.  But I am not so sure they promised themselves to Jesus.  Many seem to be more attached to the vicious, homicidal deity who was a bachelor on Mt. Sinai.  The one that killed the Egyptians, opened up the earth and swallowed the people who didn't worship him, had his people kill women and children and hamsters who happened to be in the wrong place and the wrong time, etc...  They seem to forget the revelation of the God who showed love and mercy and compassion (to all but the religious right of his day) and who told them to follow his example.
     
  5. Arnold_Philips

    Arnold_Philips what

    +440
    Christian
    In Relationship
    US-Democrat
    I don't think that rapturebaby necessarily advocates this, but just wanted to bring it up for discussion. Don't kill the messenger, Smilin.
     
  6. RevKidd

    RevKidd Simple Mans Theologian

    +63
    Pentecostal
    Married
    US-Republican
    No, I have not misunderstood Romans.  And I would agree that the teachings do not neccessarily apply to the believer, making him a hypocrite as well.  Any sinner who pick up the bible and reads it should be able to gain positive insight on how to live his life.   

    Was Paul only referring to the sin of hypocrisy or Judgment at the begining of ch. 2? 

    In Ch.1 of Romans, do you really think that Paul was just warning the people to not stray from righteousness, because of what they would fall into, and not because the practices they were doing were wrong.... ?

     
    Does this then not apply to today?  Do we have "pagan rituals" anymore?  If we do, what would you say they are?

     
     
  7. RevKidd

    RevKidd Simple Mans Theologian

    +63
    Pentecostal
    Married
    US-Republican
    Havoc, I sense some sarcasm in your reply. From what I see, hear and read religious fundamentalism is going the way of the pony express my friend. I hear and read about churches who are arguing over what they should accept and are ignoring scripture. Why are they afraid to remain and hold on too what the Bible teaches? Church organizations are struggling with the fact that they can not call sin exactly what it is, SIN. We have justify it, legalize it, socialize it, memorialize it, sympathize it, and so on.

    As I have said before, I don't think that people practicing homosexuality have a hidden agenda to do away with religion or some secretive undermining of our government or anything like that. I think they should all have the same rights as any heterosexual when it comes to employment, housing, healthcare benefits. The government has no right in limiting these benefits. As Christians, I think we look stupid trying to fight it. Why? Homosexuals are humans too, they deserve there equal right.

    I will stand firm as a Christian in my beliefs in the scripture that God believes it to be wrong and a sin. If a gay man or women walks into my church, I am going to love them and share the gospel with them. I am not going to condemn them but, give and show them love. Will I accept there sexual practice and tell them that its ok. No. You may ask what if they never change? Well that is something that we have to accept. Many people who come to Christ and want to quit smoking or drinking or other habits, some are able to stop, others have a very bad addiction and may never be able to stop, and to expect some one to change over night I think is wrong. Am I saying that to be gay is an addiction? For some yes for some no. The two people that I know who are now gay, one is gay the other is Bi. They both made decisions to enter into those sexual practices.

    That's all I can tell you.
     
  8. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    +1,462
    Seeker
    Married
    US-Republican
    Well, it's certainly very similar to Job 36:1-14, which makes basically the same point. Keep in mind the logical ordering Paul uses:

    * They knew God.
    * They turned *away* from God.
    * *because* of this, they fell into sin.

    Now, given that everyone involved *would* have been pagan before converting, and would have gone back to that pagan faith when deconverting, and that what Paul describes is pretty much a perfect match for the rituals they would have gone to... I think it's specifically about those people, and does not necessarily tell us of a general judgement on same-sex behaviors.

    Remember the early church commentator who observed that, by saying the men turned *from* women, *to* men, Paul "denied them any excuse".


    I would say that, unless it's intended as an act of worship, it's not the same thing.
     
  9. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

    +15
    Christian
    "I think it's specifically about those people, and does not necessarily tell us of a general judgement on same-sex behaviors.
    "

    And you'd be leaving out the context :) The lusts were wrong and were already there, so because of them doing peagan rituals he gave them over to their evil lusts and allowed it to happen. The lusts were evil and wrong to begin with because homosexuality is wrong, though this is not the topic of dicussion now is it?
     
  10. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    No, he's doing the exact opposite -- picking the context up.

    Verses 22-23 describe the people making idols. Paul would have been familiar with the cult practices of the surrounding pagan religions, which included both making idols, and temple prostitutes (like the kind that are condemned in Deuteronomy).

    From verses 22 and 23 we can conclude that the context of the passage is the pagan ritual practices. How else are you supposed to read this? God made them homosexual because they rejected him? Everyone who rejects God is a homosexual? Why was homosexuality in particular singled out in this section?

    So if Paul is talking about the cult prostitution and the other sexual cultish practices of the pagan religions in the area, this has nothing to do with a consensual relationship between two people.

    What "context" are you talking about that makes this apply to all same-sex relationships regardless of circumstance?

    -Chris
     
  11. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    +1,462
    Seeker
    Married
    US-Republican
    This is begging the question; logically, you're *starting* from the premise "homosexuality is wrong", and using it as the basis for an interpretation of the passage, from which you conclude... that homosexuality is wrong. But that's totally circular. We need to start by reading the passage *without* assuming that homosexuality is wrong, and see which explanations we can come up with for it.
     
  12. NOTso angry-amy

    NOTso angry-amy New Member

    85
    +2
    Does anyone else see the way that wording is very important here?

    I am not going to condemn them, but i will give and show them love.

    I am not going to condemn them, and i will give and show them love.
     
  13. Texas Lynn

    Texas Lynn Well-Known Member

    +584
    Methodist
    Married
    US-Democrat
    My homosexual agenda is usually to be able to spoon my wife after we fall asleep in bed and sometimes, we're thinking maybe New Year's Eve, share more intimacy, hopefully after the kids've gone to bed.

    Beyond that, it would be helpful if allegedly "Christian" parents of gay kids would stop abusing them, throwing them out on the streets, or locking them up in psychiatric facilities. It would be so much better for all concerned. I am mentoring a queer 16 y/o whose Dad is in prison for raping her and yes, it did happen after he found out she was queer. It is somewhat difficult to teach her to be a productive member of society given all that has happened to her. She would be perfect for the military if they'd drop their archaic 'don't ask don't tell' rule but she is the type who won't fit into the closet easily.

    I would like to be able to have the same rates for health insurance, income tax, etc. as heterosexual couples. And pity the poor naive junior nurse who ever tries to bar me from my wife's hospital bed if she's ever in one.

    Anna Quindlen once referred to the struggle for gay rights as wanting 'the right to be ordinary'. That was very accurate. And therein is the true meaning of 'gay agenda'.
     
  14. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    +1,462
    Seeker
    Married
    US-Republican
    Strong agreement on the abuse.

    One of the rules of thumb I have: If a kid has been kicked out of his home by his parents, a Christian should be someone the kid would feel comfortable coming to seeking shelter and comfort. You will notice I don't specify *why* the kid was kicked out; I honestly think it shouldn't matter. Gay? Wrong skin color? I don't care. The kid should feel safe coming to me for shelter and comfort, and should be justified in this trust.
     
  15. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

    +15
    Christian
    "logically, you're *starting* from the premise "homosexuality is wrong", and using it as the basis for an interpretation of the passage"

    that is taken from the Old testiment :) why should I forget something I've already been taught? The problem is you want to change or twist and turn the text around, and I won't allow that, sorry.
     
  16. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    +1,462
    Seeker
    Married
    US-Republican
    No, even the interpretation of the old testament is resting on this premise; people who approach it with different expectations get different results.

    I don't buy the OT argument; the only rule I've ever seen for exactly how we tell moral laws from ritual cleanliness laws was "it's a cleanliness law if a majority of middle-class Americans would like to be allowed to break it". No other rule proposed actually seems to reliably make predictions.

    The OT never once even hints at same-sex relations between women, I might point out; that is 100% added in by us. The text never mentions it.
     
  17. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

    +15
    Christian
    "No, even the interpretation of the old testament is resting on this premise; people who approach it with different expectations get different results."

    No, its not, its very clear in the passage and backed up by the NT very clearly. You can twist words all you want, I'm not buying ;)

    "The text never mentions it."

    LOL because its ment to be generic. "one small step for mankind" man that Armstrong boy sure is sexist..LOL
     
  18. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    +1,462
    Seeker
    Married
    US-Republican
    "It's meant to be generic". I see. So, we never add *anything* to the text, except that sometimes we treat a specific claim as generic, and sometimes we treat a generic claim as specific, but that's not interpretation, because it's "obvious" to us in a way precisely opposite what was "obvious" to another denomination.

    I do love being a Protestant. Catholics don't get to have this much fun.
     
  19. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

    +15
    Christian
    "I see. "

    As always seebs you love to leave out the major details, its called context.
     
  20. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    +1,462
    Seeker
    Married
    US-Republican
    It is always curious to me that "context" is only brought into the picture on precisely those verses which, if taken at face value, would not say what we want them to say.
     
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