Holy Week

[Andyman_1970]

LOL! My church doesn't even do good friday. We do a seder meal and prayer service on wednesday instead.

Sweet a seder meal!!!!!!!!!!! My wife and I thought about doing that, but since Passover is not until April 25th we thought we'd wait.

 

[arunma]

Eh, I don't do the whole Judaizing thing. It makes me a bit apprehensive, because the apostles did fight against Judaizing. But if you're doing a Passover sedar, shouldn't you at least do it on Holy Week? After all, April 25 (I think it's the 25th) is the Jewish Passover, not the Christian one.

 

[ZiSunka]

Eh, I don't do the whole Judaizing thing. It makes me a bit apprehensive, because the apostles did fight against Judaizing. But if you're doing a Passover sedar, shouldn't you at least do it on Holy Week? After all, April 25 (I think it's the 25th) is the Jewish Passover, not the Christian one.

Hey, I'm celebrating Resurrection Day all over again at the end of April because it's clear to me that Christ arose the sunday after passover.

So I'll do it now for my catholic friends and family, and do it again in April because that's the anniversary of when Christ arose from the dead.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Eh, I don't do the whole Judaizing thing. It makes me a bit apprehensive, because the apostles did fight against Judaizing. But if you're doing a Passover sedar, shouldn't you at least do it on Holy Week? After all, April 25 (I think it's the 25th) is the Jewish Passover, not the Christian one.

First, a Judaizer is someone who insists that others follow the Torah in order to be saved. I have not (and Lambslove has not), and will never do that. With all due respect before you throw words around like that please research their meanings.

Second (rabbit trail), we have no indication that the apostles were anything but Torah observant Jews - Acts 2 refers to them even going to the Temple.

Third, there is no Christian Passover. Since Jesus was crucified on Passover eve my family and I have prayerfully decided to observe a Passover Seder. [please note: in no way is this an assertion that Christians "should" observe Passover] We don't do this to "score points" with God, or somehow become more holy. We do this because we are disciples of Jesus, who lived in the 1st century as a Torah observant Jew - so we chose to do what Jesus did (or at least a something like it).

Anyway, I'm not "jumping your case" this is said in love.

Shalom..............

 

[jukesk9]

(no Mass on Good Friday).

No Mass is celebrated but there is a service. The Body and Blood that was consecrated on Thursday is given out on Friday...

 

[arunma]

First, a Judaizer is someone who insists that others follow the Torah in order to be saved. I have not (and Lambslove has not), and will never do that. With all due respect before you throw words around like that please research their meanings.

Second (rabbit trail), we have no indication that the apostles were anything but Torah observant Jews - Acts 2 refers to them even going to the Temple.

Third, there is no Christian Passover. Since Jesus was crucified on Passover eve my family and I have prayerfully decided to observe a Passover Seder. [please note: in no way is this an assertion that Christians "should" observe Passover] We don't do this to "score points" with God, or somehow become more holy. We do this because we are disciples of Jesus, who lived in the 1st century as a Torah observant Jew - so we chose to do what Jesus did (or at least a something like it).

OK, I think I understand your reasons for doing this. Personally, I don't really mind if people try to emulate first century Jewish Christians. But others go off the deep end by reading the Talmud, studying Rabbinic literature, and embracing modern Judaism, as if it were authoritative. Seeing as how modern Judaism denies the supremacy, deity, and messiahship of Jesus, any mention of Jewish practices makes me worried that people are abandoning the theology that Christ and his apostles taught us. Don't get me wrong. I realize that Jews and Christians haven't gotten along very well for the past thousand years (to put it mildly), so interfaith dialog is great. I just think we should stop short of actually believing in Judaism.

However, that doesn't sound at all like what you're doing. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Oh, just one more thing. Actually, there is a Christian Passover. Here in the west, it's been a bit obscured, because we call it "Easter." But in the eastern church, it has historically been called Pascha (Greek for Passover). The Orthodox Church does celebrate something that they call "Passover." But the emphasis is shifted from Israel's deliverance out of Egypt to the entire world's deliverance in Christ.

Hey, I'm celebrating Resurrection Day all over again at the end of April because it's clear to me that Christ arose the sunday after passover.

Well, technically we're both right (sort of). The Torah tells us the specific date of the Passover, but it uses a lunar calendar, which doesn't quite match up with the solar calendar. The early church decided to fix Passover with the solar calendar, while Jews stuck with the lunar calendar, which is why Easter differs from the Jewish Passover.

But like I told Andy, as long as the emphasis is placed on Christ instead of Judaism, I don't think there's anything wrong with it

 

[ZiSunka]

But like I told Andy, as long as the emphasis is placed on Christ instead of Judaism, I don't think there's anything wrong with it

Well, as long as your okay with it...

By the way, have you ever been to a Jewish passover seder? The emphasis is ALWAYS on Christ, even in the most Jewish homes. The whole seder is about the Messiah, and many, many references refer to the life of Christ. I've even seen Jews come to this realization during the seder meal.

 

[arunma]

By the way, have you ever been to a Jewish passover seder? The emphasis is ALWAYS on Christ, even in the most Jewish homes. The whole seder is about the Messiah, and many, many references refer to the life of Christ. I've even seen Jews come to this realization during the seder meal.

No, I've never been to a Jewish Passover sedar, nor do I ever plan to go to one. The Passover might be about the Jewish messiah, but Jews do not believe in the Messiah who has already come, and so I don't think their religion is true.

Now, certainly I respect Jews and their religion, in the same way I respect Islam and various other religions that promote moral behavior. But just as I don't believe in the Qu'ran, I don't believe in any Jewish scriptures (except for the Old Testament, because Christ's church has canonized it).

I know how some people try to show that Christ is symbolized in the Passover. There's the thing with the breaking of the bread into three pieces (symbolizing the Trinity), the breaking of one piece into two halves (symbolizing Christ's broken body), etc. But I've talked to Jews about this, and they firmly reject it. In fact, some churches have gone so far as to consult rabbis on how to perform the Passover the "right" way. And when you do this, the Christian emphasis is completely lost.

To me, Judaism is just another world religion. Judaism happens to be a religion that has produced some of the greatest ethical minds in history, but that doesn't make it a true religion. I don't believe in any of it, so I find no reason to emulate Jewish practices. That Jews happen to believe in a common Scripture doesn't make their religion anymore valid in my opinion (heck, Hindus also believe that the Bible contains truth). To me, Israel's deliverance from Egypt, and the deliverance of the church in Christ, is adequately symbolized in the Lord's Supper that our church celebrates every month. I can love and respect Jews, but I won't worship with them anymore than I would worship with Hindus.

But again, don't think that I'm judging anything that you do. All I ask is that you keep Christ supreme in everything. Some people these days just try to "remember" Christ. Let's not forget, Christ isn't someone to be remembered in the back of our minds, he is supreme in all things.

 

[ZiSunka]

Well, you are really missing out, because the seder is all about the identity and expectation of the messiah, it's all from the Bible and it's plain that the messiah could only be Christ throughout the ceremony.

I'll try to find a seder service on the web and post it for you to read. It's very affirming for Christians. It doesn't mock Christ or Believers at all, in fact, it will reinforce your belief that Christ is the messiah that the Jews have always been expecting.

 

[ZiSunka]

Here you go:

http://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach.asp?AID=1735

 

[Andyman_1970]

Personally, I don't really mind if people try to emulate first century Jewish Christians.

To me more accurate, I’m trying to emulate my Messiah, Jesus – which is what a disciple is suppose to do.

But others go off the deep end by reading the Talmud, studying Rabbinic literature, …..

I guess I’ve gone off the deep end then because I study the Talmud, Mishnah and rabbinic Midrash regularly. For me the context in which the Scriptures were written is huge. When we lift the Scriptures out of their historical and cultural context we create a hermeneutical “gap” in which fallible man can (and regularly does) create their own meaning to the Text.

For us to know Jesus—and thus God the Father and the Holy Spirit—more intimately, we must carefully assess our 21st-century culture and Western attitudes in relation to and in light of the 1st-century world of Jesus. We must immerse ourselves in the culture of Scripture and Jesus of Nazareth. And we must learn to "think Hebrew"—in the way that the original writers of the Text thought.

Seeing as how modern Judaism denies the supremacy, deity, and messiahship of Jesus, any mention of Jewish practices makes me worried that people are abandoning the theology that Christ and his apostles taught us.

One note (well maybe several), modern Judaism and 1st century Judaism are two different animals.

Something also to keep in mind, at no point were Jesus or the apostles not Torah observant Jews. No where in the New Testament are Torah observant Jews who believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah told no to be Torah observant. BTW – Galatians was written to Gentiles not Jewish Christians.

[Note: this could verge on a theological discussion and deviate from the OP as a rabbit trial]

However, that doesn't sound at all like what you're doing. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

No problem.

Oh, just one more thing. Actually, there is a Christian Passover. Here in the west, it's been a bit obscured, because we call it "Easter." But in the eastern church, it has historically been called Pascha (Greek for Passover). The Orthodox Church does celebrate something that they call "Passover." But the emphasis is shifted from Israel's deliverance out of Egypt to the entire world's deliverance in Christ

Actually the Hebrew word for feast/festival is the word mikrah and means rehearsal, in this case for the Messiah’s coming – in our case for His return.

Something to keep in mind, Easter is no the “Christian” Passover – Passover (Pesach)is Passover – no where in the New Testament did this change. The Old Testament is very clear we are not to adopt pagan practices. Easter (or Eastre in ancient times) was a pagan fertility celebration (thus the eggs and rabbits) the early church ~300 AD adopted this pagan celebration (much like Christmas) and “turned” it into a Christian holiday. I’m all for observing resurrection Sunday, but resurrection Sunday occurred the Sunday after Passover. It bothers me that for thousands of years the church has allowed itself to succumb to these pagan influences.

Well, technically we're both right (sort of). The Torah tells us the specific date of the Passover, but it uses a lunar calendar, which doesn't quite match up with the solar calendar. The early church decided to fix Passover with the solar calendar, while Jews stuck with the lunar calendar, which is why Easter differs from the Jewish Passover.

Not to mention the fact that the early church (again around 300 AD) was rabidly anti-Jewish and sought to break all ties with Judaism. The interesting thing is that up to the end of the book of Acts, Christianity was a sect of Judaism – thus the need for the Jerusalem council to figure out what to do with all the Gentiles converts regarding Torah observance.

Now, certainly I respect Jews and their religion, in the same way I respect Islam and various other religions that promote moral behavior. But just as I don't believe in the Qu'ran, I don't believe in any Jewish scriptures (except for the Old Testament, because Christ's church has canonized it).

This is where you and I diverge. There is a HUGE difference between Judaism and say Islam and Hinduism. First, Jesus was a Jew, He was the promised Jewish Messiah – He didn’t come to start a new religion He came to complete and perfect what was started.

So IMO to equate Islam and Judaism is in effect an insult to Jesus and how He lived as a 1st century Jewish rabbi.

In fact, some churches have gone so far as to consult rabbis on how to perform the Passover the "right" way. And when you do this, the Christian emphasis is completely lost.

Well considering the first “Lord’s Supper” was a Passover Seder what’s the problem. We are called to be disciples of Jesus right? A disciples in Jesus’ day was someone who’s WHOLE LIFE centered around learning what their rabbi knew (in this case Jesus), doing what their rabbi did (in this case Jesus), so that we can become like our rabbi (in this case Jesus). So if a church wants to learn how they did a Passover Seder in Jesus day, more power to them – it’s what Jesus did.

One other thing to consider (unless of course you subscribe to replacement theology in which we can kindly end the discussion here) is that the Church is grafted into the Tree of Israel – so it would seem that the Church and Israel are connected in some mysterious way.

Anyway, I certainly don’t post this as a volley in a raging debate but to where I’m coming from. Feel free to disagree……………..

Shalom………………

[note: I’m not a Messianic or trying to be Torah observant – so this is not posted as a “Hey this is what I do so I’m trying to justify my actions or lifestyle]

 

[FreeinChrist]

No, I've never been to a Jewish Passover sedar, nor do I ever plan to go to one. The Passover might be about the Jewish messiah, but Jews do not believe in the Messiah who has already come, and so I don't think their religion is true.

Now, certainly I respect Jews and their religion, in the same way I respect Islam and various other religions that promote moral behavior. But just as I don't believe in the Qu'ran, I don't believe in any Jewish scriptures (except for the Old Testament, because Christ's church has canonized it).


I know how some people try to show that Christ is symbolized in the Passover. There's the thing with the breaking of the bread into three pieces (symbolizing the Trinity), the breaking of one piece into two halves (symbolizing Christ's broken body), etc. But I've talked to Jews about this, and they firmly reject it. In fact, some churches have gone so far as to consult rabbis on how to perform the Passover the "right" way. And when you do this, the Christian emphasis is completely lost.

hmmmm... I really think you have missed the point of what folks are saying.

Have you studied the OT very seriously? The Passover in Egypt pointed to Christ, and the Day of Atonement sacrifices pointed to Christ. The Tabernacle was set up shows the Trinity. While many Jews do reject Christ, that doesn't change the fact that Christ is seen in the OT scriptures and that the Law pointed to Christ.


Also, I really don't think you are understanding the words you are throwing around here. Judaisers of the 1st century tried to get the Gentile Christians to be circumcized and to follow the dietary and clothing laws of the Jews. This is much different from today when Christians try to learn about the seder meal and the temple rules that were given by God Almighty for the sole purpose of understanding God's overall plan - a grwoing of wisdom. A study into Judaism will show you that God knew all from the beginning and used the Law and the Tabernalcle to point to Christ, and also situations like Abraham and Issac on Mt. Moriah, and Joseph of the many-colored coat.


Judaism produced Christ, as predetermined by God. Christianity is Jewish. Doesn't mean we follow the Mosaic Law, but it does mean we follow the greatest Jew - Jesus.

 

[FreeinChrist]

But again, don't think that I'm judging anything that you do. All I ask is that you keep Christ supreme in everything. Some people these days just try to "remember" Christ. Let's not forget, Christ isn't someone to be remembered in the back of our minds, he is supreme in all things.

I agree with you there.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Christianity is Jewish. Doesn't mean we follow the Mosaic Law, but it does mean we follow the greatest Jew - Jesus.

 

[arunma]

One other thing to consider (unless of course you subscribe to replacement theology in which we can kindly end the discussion here) is that the Church is grafted into the Tree of Israel – so it would seem that the Church and Israel are connected in some mysterious way.

Sorry to respond to your long post with such a cursory answer, but I think this might be why we disagree. I wouldn't call my church's theology "replacement theology." But it does bear many similarities (for example, we believe that the church is Israel), so you probably wouldn't like it very much. Of course, the Scriptures say that we are to "let every man be convinced in his own mind." So I don't want to force my theology on you, or anything.

Just a couple other things.

BTW – Galatians was written to Gentiles not Jewish Christians.

Well, let's not diminish the word of God. The entire Bible was written for the entire world. As Paul writes in that very letter (verse 3:28), "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Jews and Gentiles are equal under the New Covenant.

Well considering the first “Lord’s Supper” was a Passover Seder what’s the problem. We are called to be disciples of Jesus right? A disciples in Jesus’ day was someone who’s WHOLE LIFE centered around learning what their rabbi knew (in this case Jesus), doing what their rabbi did (in this case Jesus), so that we can become like our rabbi (in this case Jesus). So if a church wants to learn how they did a Passover Seder in Jesus day, more power to them – it’s what Jesus did.

Well, let me put it this way. I can't study religion under a person who doesn't believe in Christ. That's why I don't study rabbis, the Talmud, or Jewish writings (well, I'll study them, but not for religious purposes). These things were written by people who didn't believe in Christ, and so I can't accept their authority.

Something to keep in mind, Easter is no the “Christian” Passover – Passover (Pesach)is Passover – no where in the New Testament did this change. The Old Testament is very clear we are not to adopt pagan practices. Easter (or Eastre in ancient times) was a pagan fertility celebration (thus the eggs and rabbits) the early church ~300 AD adopted this pagan celebration (much like Christmas) and “turned” it into a Christian holiday. I’m all for observing resurrection Sunday, but resurrection Sunday occurred the Sunday after Passover. It bothers me that for thousands of years the church has allowed itself to succumb to these pagan influences.

Yes, I'm aware of the origin of the word "Easter." But I value the traditions of the early church. As for "pagan" influences, I see this as the church's acceptance of new cultural traditions. The church accepted the culture, but not the false gods. I personally have no difficulty accepting this.

Have you studied the OT very seriously? The Passover in Egypt pointed to Christ, and the Day of Atonement sacrifices pointed to Christ. The Tabernacle was set up shows the Trinity. While many Jews do reject Christ, that doesn't change the fact that Christ is seen in the OT scriptures and that the Law pointed to Christ.

Well, if it's in the Old Testament, I'm all for it. But I interpret the Old Testament through the lens of the New Testament. All I'm saying is that I don't accept interpretations from the Mishnah, Rabbinic authorities, or any other part of the Talmud.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Here you go:

http://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach.asp?AID=1735

Not all Jews use the same Haggadah. There are many variations.

A 2000-year old document such as our Haggadah offers more than its share of puzzles and mazes, hidden corners and mysteries. Join us in tackling a few of them...

Since this particular sect of Lubavitchers claims theirs is a translation of one that is 2000 years old, I am going to assume it was written shortly after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, and is practiced by a sect of Judaism that is more interested in looking forward to a future Messiah than most.

The Passover had to change when there was no more Temple. Because there is no more Temple, there also is no more lamb on the Passover table. The point to be aware of is that no modern Jews celebrate the Passover the same way Jesus celebrated it with his disciples. Some elements, like the matzah, remain. There seem already to have been 4 cups of wine in the Seder of Jesus' day. But I don't think we know all the details, and we can't assume from a modern Haggadah that we can extrapolate back to what a pre-AD 70 was like.

Some Haggadot are more messianic than others, but I would expect (without comparing them or even reading much of this one today) that a Lubavitcher Haggadah would have some messianic references, while not all do. The ones used at the Passovers i have attended did not.

(BTW, in case this point is raised again, some sects of Jews, mostly Sephardic Jews, do not allow Gentiles to eat the Passover with them, while others do. The OT is somewhat ambiguous on this point. I don't think it's necessary for us to sort out this question of OT interpretation.)

 

[arunma]

Another thing to remember is Paul's communion instructions to the Corinthians. When we eat and drink the Lord's Supper (that is, the Passover), we proclaim Christ's death (and implicitly his resurrection) until he returns. And God will curse those who eat unworthily (yes, Baptists believe that too). So that makes me more uneasy about sharing a Passover meal with non-believers, which is another reason I don't equate the Jewish and Christian Passovers.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Something to keep in mind, Easter is no the “Christian” Passover – Passover (Pesach)is Passover – no where in the New Testament did this change. The Old Testament is very clear we are not to adopt pagan practices. Easter (or Eastre in ancient times) was a pagan fertility celebration (thus the eggs and rabbits) the early church ~300 AD adopted this pagan celebration (much like Christmas) and “turned” it into a Christian holiday. I’m all for observing resurrection Sunday, but resurrection Sunday occurred the Sunday after Passover. It bothers me that for thousands of years the church has allowed itself to succumb to these pagan influences.



Not to mention the fact that the early church (again around 300 AD) was rabidly anti-Jewish and sought to break all ties with Judaism. The interesting thing is that up to the end of the book of Acts, Christianity was a sect of Judaism – thus the need for the Jerusalem council to figure out what to do with all the Gentiles converts regarding Torah observance.

Yes. This is a difficulty I have with the Ecumenical Councils. Although I hold their creeds and the main findings of each one, I think some of their other canons and anathemas need to be re-examined. Orthodox theologians are at this very moment wrestling with the canons and anathemas of Chalcedon as a result of finding that the churches excommunicated there are not really unorthodox, but use language differently. They rejected the Chalcedonian formulation of the two natures of Christ not because of a different theological understanding, but because they used the words differently.

Similarly, at Nicea (First Council of Nicea) Christians were forbidden to celebrate Passover with Jews. The date for Easter/Pascha was established in such a way that, using the Julian calendar, it would always fall after Passover. That is why Orthodox Christians will not celebrate Pascha until May 1 this year. They still follow the Julian calendar for setting the date for Easter. Lent was already being observed by the time of the Council of Nicea. By setting the date for Pascha after the Jewish Passover, they not only came closer to celebrating the resurrection on the Sunday after Passover, as advocated by several posters in this thread, but they also added force to the prohibition against celebrating it with Jews, since meat would be served at a Passover meal, and Christians could not participate while observing the Lenten fast.

The Fathers at Nicea in some ways seemed more concerned about separating the church from Jews than from pagans. Go figure!

 

[Andyman_1970]

Sorry to respond to your long post with such a cursory answer, but I think this might be why we disagree. I wouldn't call my church's theology "replacement theology." But it does bear many similarities (for example, we believe that the church is Israel), so you probably wouldn't like it very much. Of course, the Scriptures say that we are to "let every man be convinced in his own mind." So I don't want to force my theology on you, or anything.

Well I think your example is what replacement theology is the church “replaces” Israel or has become the “new” Israel. While I fundamentally disagree with you I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your attitude regarding our differences.

Well, let's not diminish the word of God. The entire Bible was written for the entire world. As Paul writes in that very letter (verse 3:28), "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Jews and Gentiles are equal under the New Covenant.

I’m not diminishing the Word of God, I’m placing it in the context it was given. Again to lift the Scriptures out of their original context creates a hermeneutical “gap” in which man being imperfect can place on the Text meanings that were not intended by the original author.

When Paul cites that passage in chapter 3 he’s talking to Gentiles who had been told they “had” to become Jewish and Torah observant in order to truly be a Christian. He doesn’t say to the Torah observant Jews (who this letter was not intended for) to stop being a Jew.

Look how many times in the 1800’s the Bible was used to justify slavery – this is an example of lifting the Text out of the context in which it was originally given in.

Well, let me put it this way. I can't study religion under a person who doesn't believe in Christ. That's why I don't study rabbis, the Talmud, or Jewish writings (well, I'll study them, but not for religious purposes).

As a disciple I’m called to be a follower of Jesus and everything He did and lived. This doesn’t mean I follow the teachings of a different rabbi, however those teachings can shed a lot of light on the world Jesus lived in.

These things were written by people who didn't believe in Christ, and so I can't accept their authority.

If Paul had the attitude that “if it’s not Christian then I’m not going to study it or affirm it’s true” then we wouldn’t have two passages in the Bible. Just because it’s labeled Christian (BTW that word in the Bible is a noun not an adjective) doesn’t mean it’s true, and just because something isn’t labeled “Christian” doesn’t mean it’s not true. (note: there is a difference between Biblical Truth and general truth – notice the difference in the capital and lower case “T”).
Jesus said in John 14:6 “I am the way, the truth and the life” – anything out there regardless of it’s authorship if it’s true it’s from Jesus evidently (granted to determine if it is true or not we need to use the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit).

Yes, I'm aware of the origin of the word "Easter." But I value the traditions of the early church. As for "pagan" influences, I see this as the church's acceptance of new cultural traditions. The church accepted the culture, but not the false gods. I personally have no difficulty accepting this.

As many of the early church fathers had ulterior motives other than living out the Kingdom of God I view them as suspect especially if they contradict the Old Testament (which Jesus and the early church/apostles did not do).

Well, if it's in the Old Testament, I'm all for it. But I interpret the Old Testament through the lens of the New Testament. All I'm saying is that I don't accept interpretations from the Mishnah, Rabbinic authorities, or any other part of the Talmud.

Since for Jesus and the apostles the “Word of God” was the Old Testament (as the New Testament was not canonized until ~300AD) I view the New Testament through the lens of the Old Testament – the New Testament is essentially commentary (or midrash if you want to be Jewish about it) on the Old Testament.

You’d be surprised as to some of the stuff I’ve found in the Mishnah that unbeknownst to the writer verify Jesus (well they verify an event that coincides with Jesus’ death and resurrection) and how His death and resurrection nullify the Temple sacrificial system. I’d say that’s true wouldn’t you?

Anyway, like I said at the beginning, I appreciate the attitude of your last post regarding our differences, that is refreshing to see here on CF.

 

[ZiSunka]

Not all Jews use the same Haggadah. There are many variations.

How about that.

Since this particular sect of Lubavitchers claims theirs is a translation of one that is 2000 years old, I am going to assume it was written shortly after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, and is practiced by a sect of Judaism that is more interested in looking forward to a future Messiah than most.

The Passover had to change when there was no more Temple. Because there is no more Temple, there also is no more lamb on the Passover table. The point to be aware of is that no modern Jews celebrate the Passover the same way Jesus celebrated it with his disciples. Some elements, like the matzah, remain. There seem already to have been 4 cups of wine in the Seder of Jesus' day. But I don't think we know all the details, and we can't assume from a modern Haggadah that we can extrapolate back to what a pre-AD 70 was like.

Some Haggadot are more messianic than others, but I would expect (without comparing them or even reading much of this one today) that a Lubavitcher Haggadah would have some messianic references, while not all do. The ones used at the Passovers i have attended did not.

(BTW, in case this point is raised again, some sects of Jews, mostly Sephardic Jews, do not allow Gentiles to eat the Passover with them, while others do. The OT is somewhat ambiguous on this point. I don't think it's necessary for us to sort out this question of OT interpretation.)

You know Liz, I admire the way you take a subject and study it deeply, but sometimes it's okay not to post everything you are thinking about every subject. We could all do that with every post, and if we did, threads would be so full of minutia that they would be unreadable.

Keep studying! But don't post three thousand words on every subject.

By the way, I have been to many passover seders of many texts and styles and I have yet to see one that isn't messianic. The focus of everyone I have ever been at, no matter what the haggadah text, is always on looking for the messiah to come.