Holy Week

[arunma]

Christianity is the completion of the Jewish faith. They are not separate religions, they are intertwined in history, theology and faith. Christianity cannot be understood separate from Judaism. That's why Jewish Believers in Christ are often called Completed Jews.

Actually, the Jews I know find the phrase "completed Jews" to be very offensive. As far as the two religions being intertwined, Christianity is the completion of the Jewish faith as it was understood by Moses and the prophets. Jesus condemned the way Judaism was practiced in his time. Is Judaism different today? If it were, it would be Christ-exalting.

But it isn't. Since the first century, Judaism has taken a vastly different path than Christianity. It has produced the Talmud, the oral law, and Rabbinic interpretations. Today, Jews believe in reincarnation, universalism (the belief that "all religions are equally valid), and worst of all: they are united in their stance that Christianity is idolatry for Gentiles.

How easy it is for us to feel theologically united to them because we both believe in the Torah. But do you know what Judaism says about conversion to Christianity? Jews believe that it is idol-worship for a Jew to become a Christian, because worshiping a man as God (Trinitarian doctrine) is forbidden. In fact, a Jew is permitted to be an atheist, but if he becomes a Christian, he is considered to be cut off from his people. I can't support this, which is why I don't worship with Jews.

I ask you to remember the words of John the Baptist: no one is saved by having Abraham as his father. A terrible heresy known as "two-covenant theology" has recently pervaded the evangelical churches. As you know, evangelicals have been very quick to support the Jews against anti-semitism. This in itself is great, because many false Christians have used our religion as a vehicle for anti-semitism (especially in Europe). But it becomes heretical when people take it a step further and assume theological unity with Judaism.

Essentially, two-covenant theology entails a belief that there are two covenants for salvation. One covenant is the Sinai covenant, by which Jews can be saved through faith in God and observance of the Torah. The second covenant is the New Covenant in Christ, by which Gentiles are saved.

But this theology stands in opposition to Romans 11. There isone root, the patriarchs Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. There is one tree, the people Israel. And there is one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom believers are grafted in, and unbelievers are cut off. You can see for yourself by reading the Torah that was given to our spiritual ancestors at Mount Sinai. Deuteronomy 27:26 says, "cursed is anyone who does not do everything written in this book of the Law." Nowhere does the Torah promise salvation; it promises a curse. The only salvation found anywhere in the Scriptures is in the person of Christ Jesus, who enables us to obey the Torah without the threat of the curse.

In other words, here's what I'm trying to say. You are right to say that Christianity can't be understood except in light of Judaism. But the Judaism that we must understand is that found in the Old Testament. Modern Judaism is based off the Old Testament, but it is not the Judaism that we should seek to understand. The oral law, the Talmud, and the writings of the rabbis are excellent ways to understand the religion that is practiced by modern Jews. It is in no way representative of the faith that Christ wanted us to practice.

That's what they are waiting for, too.

Are you sure about that? I doubt any Jews are looking for a Messiah dipped in the blood that he shed at Calvary. Certainly they aren't looking for the Messiah that all of humanity once pierced. In fact, many Jews interpret the Messianic age as an age when humankind will repair the world without a supernatural Messiah. And they flatly reject the idea that your sins can be washed away by faith in the Messiah (for that matter, they don't believe that we need to be saved from anything at all).

Well, as I said before, I don't want to start calling you blasphemous for celebrating the Passover. Would you prefer to start a debate in non-Christian religions? Maybe some of the Jews can also give their opinions that way.

 

[ZiSunka]

Actually, the Jews I know find the phrase "completed Jews" to be very offensive.

Yes, but the Jews I know who have been saved by faith in Jesus Christ LOVE the term.

Are you sure about that? I doubt any Jews are looking for a Messiah dipped in the blood that he shed at Calvary. Certainly they aren't looking for the Messiah that all of humanity once pierced.

Many, many of them don't know anything about our Christ. They long to be assured of forgiveness and salvation, but they don't know that Christ is the one through whom that must come. Give them a break. They are not more inherently evil that we are. Read Isaiah and see what kind of Messiah they are looking for. I think you will realize they are one in the same. Few Jews these days are familiar with Isaiah because faith isn't as important to American Jews as it used to be. It used to be (even the generation before ours) that every Jewish child went to sabbath school on saturday, all day, and learned all about the Bible. Now sabbath schools have few children enrolled. They don't know who the Messiah is supposed to be. They don't know or care whether or not he has already come. Many of my Jewish acquaintances are agnostic or atheistic because they figure that if there was a God, he would have sent the messiah by now. They don't know he already did.

If you meet a Jew, please don't give them the impression that their faith is bad or that they are bad people for not believing in Jesus.

 

[arunma]

Many, many of them don't know anything about our Christ. They long to be assured of forgiveness and salvation, but they don't know that Christ is the one through whom that must come.

Well, the average Jew today knows enough about Christianity to know that he doesn't want to be a Christian. Many Jews warn their children to not become Christians. I suppose I can't blame them, because false "Christians" have historically persecuted them in Christ's name. But the fact is, if you start talking to a Jew about ""forgiveness and salvation," he'll be able to tell very quickly that you're a Christian. I know from personal experience

Give them a break. They are not more inherently evil that we are.

I didn't say they were. On the contrary, Jews have always been the champions of human rights. For example, at a time when white, southern "Christians" were afraid to support anything that smelled of liberalism, Jews joined Martin Luther King and the black evangelical churches to fight racism. If anything, the Jews are less evil than the rest of us.

But again, that doesn't imply that their religion is correct.

Read Isaiah and see what kind of Messiah they are looking for. I think you will realize they are one in the same.

Jews believe that Isaiah 53 is a personification of Israel. They don't even believe that it's messianic.

If you meet a Jew, please don't give them the impression that their faith is bad or that they are bad people for not believing in Jesus.

I would never do that, "for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." Christians are just as depraved as Jews (probably a little more so); and the fact that we are redeemed is a testimony that we have no intrinsic righteousness apart from Christ. If I evangelize to Jews, I make it clear to them that I'm preaching Christianity, not Messianic "Judaism." I see Judaism as just another world religion. I don't think that modern Judaism has any relation to Christianity. Just as we would never study the Vedas or the Qu'ran for spiritual insight, nor should look to Judaism (actually, the Qu'ran might contain a bit more truth than the Vedas or Judaism, but that's another issue). Christ is all-sufficient.

Besides that, there are many fine Christian theologians. We've got Saint Tertullian, Saint Athanaseus, and C.S. Lewis. If we're going to study Maimonides and Rambam, we may as well study Swami Vivekananda.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Actually, the Jews I know find the phrase "completed Jews" to be very offensive. As far as the two religions being intertwined, Christianity is the completion of the Jewish faith as it was understood by Moses and the prophets. Jesus condemned the way Judaism was practiced in his time. Is Judaism different today? If it were, it would be Christ-exalting.

But it isn't. Since the first century, Judaism has taken a vastly different path than Christianity. It has produced the Talmud, the oral law, and Rabbinic interpretations. Today, Jews believe in reincarnation, universalism (the belief that "all religions are equally valid), and worst of all: they are united in their stance that Christianity is idolatry for Gentiles.

You are doing alot of generalizations about Jews in this thread, as if they all beleive in the same thing. they don't.

And regardless of any of that, the fact does not change that it was the Passover meal that Jesus was leading before going to the garden, then getting arrested. Understanding the Passover meal that Jesus celebrated sheds light on the Lord's Supper and on His own sacrifice.

 

[arunma]

You are doing alot of generalizations about Jews in this thread, as if they all beleive in the same thing. they don't.

I don't know a single Jew who doesn't reject the Messiahship of Jesus. And I know a lot of Jews.

Understanding the Passover meal that Jesus celebrated sheds light on the Lord's Supper and on His own sacrifice.

Great! By all means let's understand the Passover. But let's understand it from a Christian perspective. Modern day Jews have no advantage over us. Like I said, Christ is all-sufficient.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I don't know a single Jew who doesn't reject the Messiahship of Jesus. And I know a lot of Jews.

But you wrote:
Today, Jews believe in reincarnation, universalism (the belief that "all religions are equally valid), and worst of all: they are united in their stance that Christianity is idolatry for Gentiles.

Yet I know alot of Jews who DO NOT believe in reincarnation or universalism. In fact, the orthodox Jew does not believe in these things. So that is why I write that you are doing alot of generalization in your posts.

Great! By all means let's understand the Passover. But let's understand it from a Christian perspective. Modern day Jews have no advantage over us. Like I said, Christ is all-sufficient.

And I haven't seen anyone suggest differently! You have seemed to have jumped to a different conclusion.


Anyway, the topic sure wandered from the OP! I'd be interested in hearing about how other churches deal with the week before Easter.

 

[arunma]

Yeah, we have strayed from what I originally intended to discuss. Well, all I've been saying for the past several posts is that I don't think we ought to learn religion from anyone who doesn't believe in Christ.

 

[Andyman_1970]

I believe they were sincere in their thinking, but they were wrong to cancel the celebration of passover. No human has the right to cancel God's everlasting ordinance.

LL, very well said...............

This one of my "problems" with the early church fathers at Niceia (sp?) - it's well documented that those fathers (not all but many) desired to erase any "Jewishness" from Christianity (several were strong anti-Semites). Since Christianity when it started was a sect of Judaism, not a "brand new religion", I believe their actions were in error.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Christianity is the completion of the Jewish faith. They are not separate religions, they are intertwined in history, theology and faith. Christianity cannot be understood separate from Judaism. That's why Jewish Believers in Christ are often called Completed Jews.

Excellent point, Jesus, Peter, Paul, John, James, Luke, all the authors of the NT were Torah observant Jews. The early church in Acts 2 is even described as Torah Observant. For us to truly understand what these men were saying when they wrote the Text's we study today, we have to think like a 1st century Jew, not a 21st century Western Christian.

As for Passover, I'm a disciple of Jesus - a 1st century Jewish rabbi (who was YHWH incarnate and the Messiah) - a disciple's whole life in the 1st century was devoted to learning what their rabbi knew, doing what their rabbi did, so they can become like their rabbi. Since Jesus celebrated Passover, our family has prayerfully decided to do so as well this year.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Essentially, two-covenant theology entails a belief that there are two covenants for salvation. One covenant is the Sinai covenant, by which Jews can be saved through faith in God and observance of the Torah. The second covenant is the New Covenant in Christ, by which Gentiles are saved.

First, this is a topic for a salvation theology thread rather than a thread on Passover I’m sure this will uncork all sorts of rabbits – I hope it doesn’t. Again arunma I appreciate your considerate tone.

I agree that the 2 covenant idea is troublesome. However in Hebrews I believe the better translation (in it’s context) of the use of the word “new” regarding God’s covenant with His people would be renewed (just like we call the moon once a month a “new” moon, but it’s the same moon renewed in it’s phases).

Isaiah 45:22 “Turn to me (t’shuva in the Hebrew which is were we get the word “repent”) and be saved”

Notice there is no mention of Torah observance in that passage. There is a huge educational deficiency regarding Christians in their understanding of the Torah and living it out. No where in the Torah does it say living these commands “scores points towards salvation”. The 613 mitzvot (commands) are lived out because of their heart condition. When a Jew loves God with all their heart, soul and strength (Deuteronomy 6) the desire of their heart is to live those commands out. Exodus 19 & 20 is even referred to in ancient Jewish text’s as “God the lover” not God the “party pooper with all His rules”.

Salvation has always been repentance (turning or returning to God) by faith, this is what John the Baptist and Jesus preached – notice how many times each of them use the word repent (return to God, t’shuva) in their public teachings.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Excellent point, Jesus, Peter, Paul, John, James, Luke, all the authors of the NT were Torah observant Jews. .

Just had to point this out.....
Matthew 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
Simon was not a Jew or a Hebrew.

I think what Arunma is trying to say is that the misitrty of reconciliation is NOT mankind to mankind, but from mankind to God.
Jesus came to reconcile the Jews with God and the Gentiles with God, not to reconcile the Jews and the Gentiles together.
Some believe this some do not. I tend to agree that God wants us reconciled to HIM, not to any religion.
GEL

 

[Andyman_1970]

............. I don't think we ought to learn religion from anyone who doesn't believe in Christ.

I don't want to learn religion from anyone. Jesus didn't command us to be members of a religion. He commaned the early disciples to go make more disciples. Jesus actually condemned religiosity and religion.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Just had to point this out.....
Matthew 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
Simon was not a Jew or a Hebrew.

Scholars tell us Simon was of the Zealot sect of Judaism - who will the Essenes lived in and around Cannan.

I think what Arunma is trying to say is that the misitrty of reconciliation is NOT mankind to mankind, but from mankind to God.
Jesus came to reconcile the Jews with God and the Gentiles with God, not to reconcile the Jews and the Gentiles together.
Some believe this some do not. I tend to agree that God wants us reconciled to HIM, not to any religion.
GEL

I agree............

 

[Crazy Liz]

I think what Arunma is trying to say is that the misitrty of reconciliation is NOT mankind to mankind, but from mankind to God.
Jesus came to reconcile the Jews with God and the Gentiles with God, not to reconcile the Jews and the Gentiles together.
Some believe this some do not. I tend to agree that God wants us reconciled to HIM, not to any religion.
GEL

If that's what he means, then I disagree.

[bible]1 john 4:20[/bible]

You can't separate reconciliation with God and reconciliation with humans that way.

 

[ZiSunka]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Crazy Liz again.

​

 

[arunma]

I think what Arunma is trying to say is that the misitrty of reconciliation is NOT mankind to mankind, but from mankind to God.

Thanks, that is part of what I was trying to say. But if you don't mind, please allow me to add to it.

You can't separate reconciliation with God and reconciliation with humans that way.

Actually GEL is right, though it would have helped if she added a couple extra sentences to her post. The ministry of reconciliation is reconciliation with God. But by being reconciled with God, we are also reconciled with each other. Obviously the apostle John is right, because the Scriptures cannot lie. If you don't love your brothers, you obviously aren't reconciled to God. We agree on this point.

I don't want to learn religion from anyone. Jesus didn't command us to be members of a religion. He commaned the early disciples to go make more disciples. Jesus actually condemned religiosity and religion.

Actually, Jesus never condemned religiosity or religion. Jesus himself was religious after all. He condemned the false, hypocritical religion of the Jewish leaders. The apostles Paul and James use the word "religion" in reference to Christianity (you can just check your concordance, if you don't believe me). In fact, James 1:27 describes pure and undefiled religion as the act of doing good works. Paul also refers to religion in terms of doing good deeds. 1 Timothy 5:4 says, "But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God."

But to quell the argument, let me rephrase myself. We should never try to develop our faith in Christ by studying under people who don't believe in Christ. If you study under a Rabbi, will he ever teach you about how the Passover points to Jesus? Will he show you that all the prophets until John the Baptist forshadowed Jesus? Of course not, because he doesn't believe in these things! Judaism is a separate religion, there's no reason anyone would help us to learn about Christ. Certainly I'm not trying to convince you to begrudge Jews. But please remember that Judaism isn't "Christianity Lite." It's a separate religion with its own system of beliefs.

Notice there is no mention of Torah observance in that passage. There is a huge educational deficiency regarding Christians in their understanding of the Torah and living it out. No where in the Torah does it say living these commands “scores points towards salvation”.

Exactly! I think we agree more than either of us thinks. The Torah does nothing to save. It doesn't claim to save anyone. That's why the two covenant theology is heretical (and based on your last couple posts, I'm guessing you don't adhere to it). Here's the crux of my argument: absolutely no one can fully know God apart from faith in Christ Jesus. I don't like to turn Christianity into a "get out of hell free card." But it is also true that no one can be saved apart from faith in Christ. That is why I exhort all fellow Christians to never believe that Judaism is an alternative to Christianity.

Unfortunately, many evangelicals today fail to evangelize Jews, because they believe that Judaism is an "equally valid" religion. But what will Christ say to us at the Resurrection if we tell him that we were unwilling to evangelize Jews simply because they were Jews? I think he'll tell us that they were his people too, and that we should have done his will by teaching the Gospel to them.

Salvation has always been repentance (turning or returning to God) by faith, this is what John the Baptist and Jesus preached – notice how many times each of them use the word repent (return to God, t’shuva) in their public teachings.

Yes, that's true. Salvation always requires repentance. But to truly repent, we must turn to the one that we have all crucified, and declare "Iesous Kurios." Don't you agree?

 

[GreenEyedLady]

If that's what he means, then I disagree.

1 John 4:20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

You can't separate reconciliation with God and reconciliation with humans that way.

While I agree with Arumans post. I want to point out that this verse is reffering to brothers and sisters in Christ, not just mere humans and not other religions.
So, yes i agree that once we are all saved, we MUST love our brothers and sisters. The main focus between Jew and Gentile is to be reconciled with God first, (saved) then we can reconcile with them in brotherly love. If humans are not saved, they cannot reconcile with each other. Seems like the world is trying to do this without God.
GEL

 

[Andyman_1970]

While I agree with Arumans post. I want to point out that this verse is reffering to brothers and sisters in Christ, not just mere humans and not other religions.

That word brother in the Greek is the word adelphos can also be translated to mean neighbor or countryman and not just someone of like faith.

So, yes i agree that once we are all saved, we MUST love our brothers and sisters. The main focus between Jew and Gentile is to be reconciled with God first, (saved) then we can reconcile with them in brotherly love. If humans are not saved, they cannot reconcile with each other. Seems like the world is trying to do this without God.
GEL

So when Jesus says the second most important commandment is to "Love your neighbor" and then in Luke with the parable of the Good Samaritan when He defined who our neighbor is He was only talking about those who believe what I believe?

We are to love (agape) everyone regardless of their faith, doesn't Jesus say love our enemies?

God did not put the church here to be a "Holy huddle" or a "country club" for His people, so they can sit around and just love each other and ignore the lost and broken world around them. The whole point of the church is to be Jesus' hands and feet, to be God's crisis response team to the world around us.

Loving others, regardless of their faith, IS how you love God, that's it.........that's the way of Jesus.

[note: that doesn't mean you have to agree with their faith, but it does mean you have to love (agape) them.]

 

[arunma]

It's true that believers are commanded to have agape love for everyone, not only other believers. However, in Romans 12 we are also commanded to have a special, affectionate brotherly love towards other believers. So we are commanded to love everyone, but we're also commanded to love each other a bit differently.

Anyway, my original point (after what turned out to be a short discussion on Holy Week, that is) was that we shouldn't seek help from other religions to understand our own Scriptures. We Christians have our own scholars and theologians.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

So when Jesus says the second most important commandment is to "Love your neighbor" and then in Luke with the parable of the Good Samaritan when He defined who our neighbor is He was only talking about those who believe what I believe?

You are correct about the brother thing. I was rushing when typing this morning. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.
Jesus said LOVE your nieghbor, not reconcile with your nieghbor.
Jesus Christ was not a compromiser.
I think you are getting love and reconciled confused. They do not mean the same thing.
You cannot reconcile wtih the Muslims and everyone get together and just praise the Lord together because we all believe in the same God. You can love the Muslims, pray for the Muslims, but be not reconciled with them. Jesus was not teaching this in his commandment. We love our nieghbors, give them the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ so that they may be reconciled with the Lord.
The world is beginning to teach that we can all be one happy family reconciled together without all believing in the same God. This is not truth, and this is not what God wanted. We are to reconcile with HIM, then worship together.
GEL