Holy Week

[ZiSunka]

Well, if it's in the Old Testament, I'm all for it. But I interpret the Old Testament through the lens of the New Testament. All I'm saying is that I don't accept interpretations from the Mishnah, Rabbinic authorities, or any other part of the Talmud.

So this day shall be to you a memorial; and you shall keep it as a feast to the Lord throughout your generations. You shall keep it as a feast by an everlasting ordinance. Exodus 12:14

How about an interpretation from God? Passover is an everlasting ordinance, not one that expired after the Resurrection. Yes, let's celebrate the Resurrection with all our hearts as our highest holiday, because there is no greater holiday, but let's not forget that God ordained that we should celebrate Passover as an everlasting ordinance, something we should do every year as a foreshadowing of the Crucifixion, so we will remember how it is that the Cross is able to redeem us at all. Christ IS our Passover lamb.

For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. It is only by understanding Passover that we can fully understand the Cross.

 

[arunma]

Andyman, I also appreciate the spirit of mutual respect we've got here, and I hope to continue that. I just wanted to respond to this.

As many of the early church fathers had ulterior motives other than living out the Kingdom of God I view them as suspect especially if they contradict the Old Testament (which Jesus and the early church/apostles did not do).

I'm not sure which church "fathers" you're talking about here. I'm referring to men like Polycarp, Ignatius, and Tertullian. These men labored for the Gospel, and many of them even gave their lives for it. In an age when saying "Iesous Kurios" was considered treason against Rome, they disobeyed the state and followed God. Everything I've read about them suggests that living out the Kingdom of God was their only motive. When Polycarp was sent to his death (by being burned alive), tradition tells us that his last words were "Thou threatenest me with fire which burns for an hour, and so is extinguished; but knowest not the fire of hell, and of that eternal punishment, which is reserved for the ungodly." There's no way that men like this had any ulterior motives.

 

[ZiSunka]

And Polycarp said not to have Passover?

 

[arunma]

I don't know what Polycarp said about the Passover. All I'm saying is that the church fathers were among the most godly Christians who've ever lived after the New Testament church. And after Jesus and his apostles, these are the people we should look to for sound doctrine.

 

[ZiSunka]

I don't know what Polycarp said about the Passover. All I'm saying is that the church fathers were among the most godly Christians who've ever lived after the New Testament church. And after Jesus and his apostles, these are the people we should look to for sound doctrine.

I'm not so sure of that, whatever is oldest isn't always the best.

But anyway, what did they teach about the passover?

 

[Crazy Liz]

How about that.




You know Liz, I admire the way you take a subject and study it deeply, but sometimes it's okay not to post everything you are thinking about every subject. We could all do that with every post, and if we did, threads would be so full of minutia that they would be unreadable.

Keep studying! But don't post three thousand words on every subject.

By the way, I have been to many passover seders of many texts and styles and I have yet to see one that isn't messianic. The focus of everyone I have ever been at, no matter what the haggadah text, is always on looking for the messiah to come.

Well, it seems like you agree with me about the Nicean Fathers, if not about the Haggadah.

 

[arunma]

I'm not so sure of that, whatever is oldest isn't always the best.

But anyway, what did they teach about the passover?

Actually, I looked up some information on Polycarp. It turns out he did celebrate the Passover on the 14th of Nisan, as per the Old Testament lunar calendar.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Actually, I looked up some information on Polycarp. It turns out he did celebrate the Passover on the 14th of Nisan, as per the Old Testament lunar calendar.

Why do you think the Nicean Fathers prohibited this a couple hundred years later?

 

[arunma]

The Nicene church leaders thought it was more honoring to Christ for the Passover to be held on a Sunday, which by then was widely accepted as the Lord's Day. I disagree with their logic, but I don't think they were insincere in their beliefs. After, remember that Christian persecution was going on in just 300 AD. These weren't a bunch of rich Jerry Falwells and Benny Hinns who peddle the Gospel for profit. The men at the Nicene Council had risked their lives for Christ, and they were very passionate about what they believed. That's why I respect these men, even if I don't quite agree with all of their theology (though at least the Nicene Creed was theologically sound). Then again, I'm a Baptist, so fortunately I don't have to hold tradition up to the same level as Scripture. But that doesn't mean I don't value it.

 

[ZiSunka]

I don't think sincerity counts for anything. Human sacrifices are sincere attempts to please blood-thirsty gods, but that doesn't make them right. So the Nicene councils sincere beliefs that they were honoring Christ by neglecting God's ordained holiday doesn't make much sense. How can you honor God by cancelling his ordinances?

I believe they were sincere in their thinking, but they were wrong to cancel the celebration of passover. No human has the right to cancel God's everlasting ordinance.

 

[arunma]

Well, keep in mind that the feast days are part of the Old Covenant, which has been fulfilled in Christ. So we no longer are required to celebrate the Passover on the 14th of Nisan. Of course, Paul also writes that we shouldn't judge each other with regards to Sabbaths, New Moons, or feast days. So I also think the Nicene Council was wrong to impose this on the Asian churches.

 

[ZiSunka]

So, everlasting ordinance doesn't mean everlasting, it only meant "until the next covenant comes along"? Besides, I don't really think there are TWO convenants, the NT is the completion of the OT, but it is not a NEW covenant at all.

I don't think Paul said anything about sabbaths or new moons or feast days, he said that if we celebrate a day, we should celebrate it for the Lord, and if we don't celebrate a day, we should do it because of the Lord. Judging involves condemning or acquitting, and I don't see anyone doing that here.

 

[arunma]

The statement about Paul's ruling on feast days was more of a concession. I recognize that the Nicene Council may have been wrong in their decision about Passover.

Oh, I've got to edit this. My statement about Paul's ruling was a concession. Obviously, Paul wouldn't make concessions on such important issues.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

I don't think sincerity counts for anything. Human sacrifices are sincere attempts to please blood-thirsty gods, but that doesn't make them right. So the Nicene councils sincere beliefs that they were honoring Christ by neglecting God's ordained holiday doesn't make much sense. How can you honor God by cancelling his ordinances?

I believe they were sincere in their thinking, but they were wrong to cancel the celebration of passover. No human has the right to cancel God's everlasting ordinance.

Why do you think that no one has the right to not observe the passover?

Would you concider this a sin or going against God;s everlasting ordinance?
GEL

 

[ZiSunka]

Why do you think that no one has the right to not observe the passover?

Would you concider this a sin or going against God;s everlasting ordinance?
GEL

Everyone has the right to do whatever they want GEL.

God established an everlasting ordinance, and if you are okay with not observing it, that's up to you. My opinion means nothing.

 

[Crazy Liz]

LL, let me go in a little different direction, if I may. Do you observe Passover every year? Who do you celebrate it with? Jews? Christians? Messianics?

How long have you been doing this?

Some of us here have never celebrated Passover. Others have had it demonstrated and explained in our church by Jews for Jesus or some similar group, and some of us may have attended a seder at a friend's home once or twice. Most of us do not make it part of our regular yearly practice. It would be interesting to hear from someone to whom it is important a little more about the how and why.

Would LL, PG, or anyone else who practices it regularly like to share how they came to this practice, who they celebrate it with, and what kind of seder they attend?

 

[ZiSunka]

Passover is celebrated with family, either your own, a family that invites you to share it with them, or with a church or synagogue family.

I admit I have not done it every year because I just discovered the verses about it being an everlasting ordinance a couple years ago. Even before that I had seder with many groups, Christian, Messianic and Jew, and among the Jews, those who were practicing Jews and those who were Jews in name only. I've never heard of a Jew who didn't observe the passover in some way. I've never had it with any Jews for Jesus groups. I don't think that organization is active around here.

There are many haggadahs, but only among the atheistic Jews does the passover not mention the messiah. Even among the nonpracticing Jews, the haggadah is about the expected messiah. One Jewish family I had seder with was anything but practicing. The daughter was my friend in college and she used to eat bacon and cheeseburgers with the rest of us. She went to Hillel for social events (she wanted to marry a nice Jewish man), but not for worship. She said her whole family was Jew by ethnicity, but not by faith. At their seder, the haggadah they used was all about the messiah.

It is the rare haggadah that doesn't focus on the escape from Egypt and the expectation and identity of the coming messiah. I have a book of prayers and services for atheistic Jews and I did find a haggadah that doesn't mention God in anyway, let alone a messiah. It's a rememberance of the flight from Egypt, but it doesn't acknowledge God at all.

They always end with the children running to the front door to see if the Messiah has come (they expect his arrival on Passover), and then the words, "Well, maybe next year."

 

[Crazy Liz]

They always end with the children running to the front door to see if the Messiah has come (they expect his arrival on Passover), and then the words, "Well, maybe next year."

Hmmm... In the seders I've been to, it was Elijah they poured an extra cup of wine for and left the door open for.

...but now that I think about it, that did have to do with the whole idea that Elijah would return before the Messiah came.

 

[arunma]

The problem (for me, anyway) is that the messiah Jews are waiting for is not Jesus the Messiah. Jews are looking for someone who will restore Israel, not One who has redeemed them from their sins.

Don't get me wrong; certainly I can and do respect the Jewish religion. But you're suggesting that we worship alongside Jews. And there are too many religious differences for me to ignore. Judaism proports a univeralist god who accepts all forms of religious practice, and who will not send a son to bring Jews and Gentiles together to worship him. Most importantly, this god does not claim to be the father of our Lord Jesus Christ. And personally, I cannot accept any such god as God.

Now, some will be quick to claim that Jews worship the God of the Old Testament, and therefore worship the God in three persons, even if they don't know it. Personally, I don't think this is possible. You can't worship a God whom you don't even know. And again, that we have the same Scripture doesn't mean that we have the same beliefs. The Talmud might have some interesting stories about Moses' 40 years in Midian. But what will it say about Isaiah 53, Deuteronomy 18, or Psalm 22? It certainly won't recognize Christ in those Scriptures.

Like I said before, I'm all for interfaith dialog, so long as it's understood that Christianity and Judaism are two separate religions (and I think the vast majority of Jews would support this). But I'm not going to worship with them. After all, I'm waiting for a Messiah who sits upon a white horse and whose robe is dipped in blood. I don't know what messiah Jews are waiting for, but I doubt many of them would support that.

Of course, I'm trying not to disrespect anyone's practices regarding Passover. But these are some reasons why I personally am not in favor of such practices.

...and to think this was supposed to be a thread about Holy Week! Oh well, it's an interesting discussion nonetheless.

 

[ZiSunka]

Christianity is the completion of the Jewish faith. They are not separate religions, they are intertwined in history, theology and faith. Christianity cannot be understood separate from Judaism. That's why Jewish Believers in Christ are often called Completed Jews.

After all, I'm waiting for a Messiah who sits upon a white horse and whose robe is dipped in blood. I don't know what messiah Jews are waiting for, but I doubt many of them would support that.

That's what they are waiting for, too.