Holy War

[Steezie]

It's being done by Muslims, in the name of Islam, with the blessing of and, often, at the direction of the state.

You over-look one important fact. The state that directs these actions are often millitant fundamentalists (The Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps of the Islamic world) and do not represent Muslims as a whole.

The Holocaust was done by Christians (including Hitler) with the support of the State and the church... So what is your point again?

Hitler was not a Christian, he propagated his own religion which was a poorly slapped together mix of German mythology, history, idealized and perverted occult concepts, and hate.

The church in Germany at the time was given no real special treatment and priests were killed along with civillians. The Church in Rome tried to remain on Hitler's good graces but without appearing too in-favor of his policies. Survival

 

[MikeMcK]

The Holocaust was done by Christians (including Hitler)

Actually, the Holocaust was the work of the Nazis, not Christians.

In addition, Hitler wasn't a Christian. It is very well known that he followed pagan religions and the occult, not Christianity.

with the support of the State and the church... So what is your point again?

I can't help but wonder, then, why so many Protestant and Baptist pastors ended up in concentration camps for speaking out against the Nazis.

Does the name Deitrich Bonhoffer ring a bell?

My point is that the things in the OP are taking place most Muslim countries on a daily basis.

 

[TuxThePenguin]

Hitler was not a Christian, he propagated his own religion which was a poorly slapped together mix of German mythology, history, idealized and perverted occult concepts, and hate.

The church in Germany at the time was given no real special treatment and priests were killed along with civillians. The Church in Rome tried to remain on Hitler's good graces but without appearing too in-favor of his policies. Survival

As my reference shows. Hitler gave all the outward signs of being Catholic. Therefore who am I to question his Religion? Whilst abhorrent his views are no more strange than some of the things I hear every day on the CrEvo Forums.

It gives me no comfort what the church in Rome acted the way they did when confronted with Evil.

These things you mention

mix of German mythology, history, idealized and perverted occult concepts, and hate

are common motivators of people. Hitler being a good speech writer knew to use them. Not so sure on the occult but then again ... Wolfenstein was a great game.

 

[TuxThePenguin]

Actually, the Holocaust was the work of the Nazis, not Christians.

In addition, Hitler wasn't a Christian. It is very well known that he followed pagan religions and the occult, not Christianity.

My link had evidence, yours?

I can't help but wonder, then, why so many Protestant and Baptist pastors ended up in concentration camps for speaking out against the Nazis.

Maybe they were good men.

Does the name Deitrich Bonhoffer ring a bell?

Could he be one of those good men? (and women)
Were all the good men (and women) pastors? You seem unable to uncouple an individual from his church.

My point is that the things in the OP are taking place most Muslim countries on a daily basis.

And you totally ignored my other point. Excepting you hypocrisy (assuming you do not disprove my 'Hitler was Catholic' assertion)

i also said

This thread is about ending oppression. Arguing "My oppression is worse than your oppression" seems childish.

 

[MikeMcK]

My link had evidence, yours?

I thought it was common knowledge that the Nazis were the ones behind the Holocaust.

Maybe they were good men.

They were. And the fact that they stood up (and so many of them paid with their lives) shows that the Holocaust was not done with the "blessing of the church".

Now, perhaps you just mean the Roman Catholic church.

That may be, but don't blame us for what somebody else did.

Could he be one of those good men? (and women)
Were all the good men (and women) pastors? You seem unable to uncouple an individual from his church.

They were the pastors of their churches and they were acting as leaders of their churches. There is no need to seperate the two when one is acting on behalf of the other.

And you totally ignored my other point.

No I didn't. You simply said that they were being done by militant fundamentalists like Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps (neither of whom are fundamentalists, by the way). You didn't say anything to suggest that my point that these things are occurring in Muslim countries is not true.

 

[Steezie]

It is very well known that he followed pagan religions and the occult

He followed a very perverted occult philosophy. He was not, by any measure, Pagan.

As my reference shows. Hitler gave all the outward signs of being Catholic

Such as?

t gives me no comfort what the church in Rome acted the way they did when confronted with Evil.

While I admit thier actions may not have been honorable, they did what they felt they had to do to survive. To oppose Hitler would have earned church members bullets in the head. The Church chose self-preservation

Not so sure on the occult but then again ... Wolfenstein was a great game.

I have not played Wolfenstein

 

[TuxThePenguin]

Response to MikeMcK
Ahh ... I notice you have dropped any mention of Hitler with regard to his Christianity.

Telling.

You dance a bit. Attribute something to me that I have not said. (that was Steezie).

I will not repeat my main point a second time.

 

[Steezie]

You dance a bit. Attribute something to me that I have not said.

If you'll notice, I did not attribute the first quote to anyone. I count on people to be intelligent enough to recognize thier own work

I will not repeat my main point a second time.

Probably for the best because it still makes no sense and conflicts with history

 

[TuxThePenguin]

I guess the bit before was not directed at me.

Such as?

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=32742656&postcount=23
(sorry didn't want to have to type it again)

While I admit thier actions may not have been honorable, they did what they felt they had to do to survive. To oppose Hitler would have earned church members bullets in the head. The Church chose self-preservation

Which I think was immoral. Seeing as they had an afterlife planned.

I have not played Wolfenstein

the original was the game which really created the First Person Shooter genre.

 

[MikeMcK]

Response to MikeMcK
Ahh ... I notice you have dropped any mention of Hitler with regard to his Christianity.

Telling.

Yes, it tells that I said all I have to say.

Hitler wasn't a Christian. End of story.

 

[TuxThePenguin]

If you'll notice, I did not attribute the first quote to anyone. I count on people to be intelligent enough to recognize thier own work

Probably for the best because it still makes no sense and conflicts with history

Please check above - you are replying to a separate conversation I am having with MikeMcK

Sorry for any confusion - the one time I don't directly quote someone.

Anyway I have a seperate response you have probably already seen.

 

[Futuwwa]

I see. So then, why are so many Christians dying for their faith in these countries?

Because, as I said, the persecution is done by private initiative. Just because it happens it doesn't mean it's legal, let alone carried out by the state.

It's being done by Muslims, in the name of Islam, with the blessing of and, often, at the direction of the state.

Care to cite any actual examples of the bolded part? That is, persecution of the type presented in the OP, perpetrated against resident Christians (as opposed to apostates from Islam). Persecution carried out by the state. Fancy unsubstantiated conspiracy theories about Islamic states deliberately turning a blind eye towards persecution by private initiative don't count.

 

[TuxThePenguin]

Hitler wasn't a Christian. End of story.

You keep saying this. You keep forgetting to post evidence.

 

[Steezie]

From your previous post
[/quote] Hitler was not a vegetarian.[/quote] Yes he actually was. We have his medical records and the Allies captured and interrogated Hitler's personal doctor (Theodor Morell) and revealed this piece of information

Hitler was not an Atheist

This is true, but neither was he a Christian

Your quote of Hitler in Mein Kampf is accurate however it denotes no Christian over-tones. Creator is a wide-use term, used by many religions.

"Three years later he told General Gerhart Engel: 'I am now, as before, a Catholic and will always remain so'

Hitler was raised Roman Catholic, but never attended Mass or took Sacraments after leaving home. Hitler publically stressed Germany's "Christian origins" and made statements in favor of Christian ideas, but privately he showed disdain for Christianity and other religious ideas. He was a religious man, but religious of his own kind

Far from being a 'godless' state Nazi Germany enthusiastically worked with the Catholic Church. Infantry soldiers each wore a belt with Gott mit uns (God is with us) inscribed on the buckle, and blessings of troops and equipment were regular and widespread."

This was done to win support of Catholic Germans (Who made up a large percentage of Germany's population at the time).

 

[MikeMcK]

Care to cite any actual examples of the bolded part?[ That is, persecution of the type presented in the OP, perpetrated against resident Christians. (as opposed to apostates from Islam). Persecution carried out by the state.

http://www.christianpost.com/articl...minate_Open_Doors_Top_10_Persecutors_List.htm

From the article:

This year, six of Open Doors’ ten worst Christian persecution countries are ones where Islam is the dominant religion. They include: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Somalia, Maldives, Yemen and Afghanistan...

...Saudi Arabia, which again ranked second among the worst persecutors, also prohibits Christians and all non-Muslims from public worship. The country also bans conversion to Christianity, which can be punishable by death.

2007 Top 10 Persecutors:
1. North Korea
2. Saudi Arabia
3. Iran
4. Somalia
5. Maldives
6. Yemen
7. Bhutan
8. Vietnam
9. Laos
10. Afghanistan

 

[TuxThePenguin]

Yes he actually was. We have his medical records and the Allies captured and interrogated Hitler's personal doctor (Theodor Morell) and revealed this piece of information.

From my original source.

"Various Biographers, including those who knew him intimately, record his passion for Bavarian sausages, game pie and (according to his chef) stuffed pigeon.
He was, however plagued by chronic flatulance, for which his doctors regularly recommended a vegetarian diet (a remedy which will suprise many vegetarians.) He also received regular injections of a high protein serum derived from pulverised bull's testicles."

There is more but its late.

This is true, but neither was he a Christian

Your quote of Hitler in Mein Kampf is accurate however it denotes no Christian over-tones. Creator is a wide-use term, used by many religions.

Hitler was raised Roman Catholic, but never attended Mass or took Sacraments after leaving home. Hitler publically stressed Germany's "Christian origins" and made statements in favor of Christian ideas, but privately he showed disdain for Christianity and other religious ideas. He was a religious man, but religious of his own kind

This was done to win support of Catholic Germans (Who made up a large percentage of Germany's population at the time).

I don't know about your sources. but you do bring up some interesting questions.
like How long after you stop taking Mass do you officially stop being Catholic?

Your argument seems to come down to 'He only pretended to be Catholic to gain support'
I can certainly understand it - It happens all the time.

 

[Futuwwa]

@MikeMcK:

How about actually answering the question? And no, the article is wrong. Saudi Arabia doesn't prohibit conversions to Christianity. Saudi Arabia prohibits conversions away from Islam. But as for Christian (or other infidel) guest workers living there, nobody forces them to embrace Islam.

 

[MikeMcK]

@MikeMcK:

How about actually answering the question?

I did answer the question. You just don't like the answer.

Saudi Arabia prohibits conversions away from Islam.

I see. So then, what does that mean for the Muslim who converts to Christianity?

But as for Christian (or other infidel) guest workers living there, nobody forces them to embrace Islam.

And what about Christians who live in that country and have to deal with this terror on a daily basis?

 

[Steezie]

"Various Biographers, including those who knew him intimately, record his passion for Bavarian sausages, game pie and (according to his chef) stuffed pigeon.
He was, however plagued by chronic flatulance, for which his doctors regularly recommended a vegetarian diet (a remedy which will suprise many vegetarians.) He also received regular injections of a high protein serum derived from pulverised bull's testicles."

There is no evidence to support this at all. Hitler's own personal doctor's records and confession state that Hitler was a vegetarian.

How long after you stop taking Mass do you officially stop being Catholic?

There is no determinate time, however people that were close to him reported to the Allies that Hitler was religious but not Christian. Hitler's own private papers support this

 

[TuxThePenguin]

There is no evidence to support this at all. Hitler's own personal doctor's records and confession state that Hitler was a vegetarian.

My evidence comes from a secondary source which I trust.
Do you have evidence? or a link? Or do you assume that my book is lying when they reference Hitlers chef?

There is no determinate time, however people that were close to him reported to the Allies that Hitler was religious but not Christian. Hitler's own private papers support this

I'd like to see the evidence for this. Do you have links?