Holy War

[Futuwwa]

Imagine the following situation: There's a country out there where people of your religion are being oppressed because of their religion, by the law of the land. Its practice is banned, along with missionary activity. People of your religion are forced to convert to the state creed (be it another religion, or some secular state ideology) by threat of execution. For purposes of this thread, atheism is considered to be a religion.

Given these circumstances, would it be morally acceptable, commendable or even a moral duty to invade the country and end the persecution?

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Perhaps, but only if other peaceful means had been tried and it was a last resort. And I would commend securing the freedom of belief of anyone of any religion, not just my own (if I had one).

peace

 

[Museveni]

Alittle bit more complicated that that I'd say. What happens after the invasion? Will the "liberated" people start to opress the old opressors? As in the case of this thread will the liberated country become a Theocracy where the Atheistic views are surpressed and declared Illegal?(i.e nothing changes)

For the sake of argument say that that doesnt happen and it stays a "secular" state but the religeous restraints are released("Freedom of Religion" are introduced) then one might argue that it's okay but then it's not a "Holy War" but rather "enforcing" the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

 

[Merlin]

No need to imagine. Persecution of Christians as you describe is widespread.

 

[JGG]

No need to imagine. Persecution of Christians as you describe is widespread.

Well yes, and other religions also.

 

[Museveni]

Ofcourse a gargantuan difference betwen "prosecution" and stopping people from forcing other people to live by their religeous standards and beliefs of Right and Wrong.

 

[Steezie]

No need to imagine. Persecution of Christians as you describe is widespread.

Yes, how DARE they require you to remove nativity scenes!?

Seriously, no. A war of faith should be fought by the faithful. I think its wrong to make someone fight for something they do not believe in. I would not ask an Atheist or Christian to fight against an enemy that actively oppressed Pagans (By this I mean REAL oppression).

 

[flicka]

Nope, bad reason to invade anyone. But if you feel persecuted I guess you could move to a more hospitable environment.

 

[kopilo]

Yes, how DARE they require you to remove nativity scenes!?

Seriously, no. A war of faith should be fought by the faithful. I think its wrong to make someone fight for something they do not believe in. I would not ask an Atheist or Christian to fight against an enemy that actively oppressed Pagans (By this I mean REAL oppression).

This is real persecution.

The international charity uncovered information which indicates that more Christians were arrested in 2006 than in 2005, with an estimated 50,000 to 70,000 Christians currently suffering in prison camps. Many of them are tortured. Others are putting their lives at risk by trying to flee to China.

source:
http://www.inspiremagazine.org.uk/news.aspx?action=view&id=997

Yes, seriously I believe in freedom of beliefs, for christians, buddhists, atheists, deists, naturalists, nihlists, extententialists, etc.

 

[Steezie]

I have doubts about those numbers. Ive seen numbers as high as three million and as low as 5,000 Christians a year are "tortured killed or otherwise harmed for their beliefs". Im having a real tough time swallowing it. Im not denying that in other places, Christians have a tough time, but I have a seriously hard time believing that its a wide-spread and systematic problem rather than just sporradic violence by extremists in different countries.

 

[christalee4]

Imagine the following situation: There's a country out there where people of your religion are being oppressed because of their religion, by the law of the land. Its practice is banned, along with missionary activity. People of your religion are forced to convert to the state creed (be it another religion, or some secular state ideology) by threat of execution. For purposes of this thread, atheism is considered to be a religion.

Given these circumstances, would it be morally acceptable, commendable or even a moral duty to invade the country and end the persecution?

In essence, should extremist theocracies be allowed to exist?

No more than National Socialism, or Communism, in which people are being executed.

Freedom of religion does not mean freedom to kill others because they don't recognize your religion.

 

[wanderingone]

Imagine the following situation: There's a country out there where people of your religion are being oppressed because of their religion, by the law of the land. Its practice is banned, along with missionary activity. People of your religion are forced to convert to the state creed (be it another religion, or some secular state ideology) by threat of execution. For purposes of this thread, atheism is considered to be a religion.

Given these circumstances, would it be morally acceptable, commendable or even a moral duty to invade the country and end the persecution?

Depends on what "persecution" means. In general no I don't believe another nation has the right (or obligation) to invade another country and demand citizens be free to worship as they please. I'd say it would be the place an international body to encourage nations to allow freedom of religion. I'd say that nations that accept refugees should continute to accept those who are persecuted due to the practice of their faith as refugees.

 

[MikeMcK]

Imagine the following situation: There's a country out there where people of your religion are being oppressed because of their religion, by the law of the land. Its practice is banned, along with missionary activity. People of your religion are forced to convert to the state creed (be it another religion, or some secular state ideology) by threat of execution.

Oh, you mean like is happening in virtually every Muslim country on the planet?

 

[Morcova]

Imagine the following situation: There's a country out there where people of your religion are being oppressed because of their religion, by the law of the land. Its practice is banned, along with missionary activity. People of your religion are forced to convert to the state creed (be it another religion, or some secular state ideology) by threat of execution. For purposes of this thread, atheism is considered to be a religion.

Given these circumstances, would it be morally acceptable, commendable or even a moral duty to invade the country and end the persecution?

Sounds like you are describing Saudi Arabia... are you suggesting that christians should invade?

 

[Futuwwa]

Oh, you mean like is happening in virtually every Muslim country on the planet?

First of all, stay on topic. Second, get your facts straight. There is not a single Islamic country in the world at present date where the state forcibly converts resident Christians to Islam. There are a few which prohibit apostasy from Islam. The bulk of all the persecution of Christians found in Islamic countries is done by private initiative, not carried out by the state or any Islamic clergy.

 

[Futuwwa]

Sounds like you are describing Saudi Arabia... are you suggesting that christians should invade?

I can't say I'm suggesting it, but I wouldn't condemn them if they did.

 

[armyman_83]

Imagine the following situation: There's a country out there where people of your religion are being oppressed because of their religion, by the law of the land. Its practice is banned, along with missionary activity. People of your religion are forced to convert to the state creed (be it another religion, or some secular state ideology) by threat of execution. For purposes of this thread, atheism is considered to be a religion.

Given these circumstances, would it be morally acceptable, commendable or even a moral duty to invade the country and end the persecution?

I believe that it would be morally acceptable and even commendable. Why should we not help those who follow Yahweh, if they were being so opressed? Should we not war against those who opress the godly? Should we not help those who are righteouss? We should be able to count on our borthers and sisters (though of course I do not promote the idea of women fighting) to aid us, why then should we sit back and enjoy peace?

Is it not written "Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war and my fingers to fight." Psl. 144:1?

Christianity and Cowardice are not one and the same.

 

[Job_s_First_Son]

Yes, maybe, no.

Good post.

 

[MikeMcK]

First of all, stay on topic.

I am on topic. I'm addressing the OP.

Second, get your facts straight. There is not a single Islamic country in the world at present date where the state forcibly converts resident Christians to Islam.

I see. So then, why are so many Christians dying for their faith in these countries?

The bulk of all the persecution of Christians found in Islamic countries is done by private initiative, not carried out by the state or any Islamic clergy.

It's being done by Muslims, in the name of Islam, with the blessing of and, often, at the direction of the state.

 

[TuxThePenguin]

I see. So then, why are so many Christians dying for their faith in these countries?

One of my family is a firm believer - who spent time in the Yemen teaching English.
Now conversion to Christianity is illegal AFAIK but thats ok because they're only there to teach English . Its strange its arranged by his church and when he's here he tells everyone who'll listen how great Jesus is. (I think he's finally given up on me.)

Anyway ......

This thread is about ending oppression. Arguing "My oppression is worse than your oppression" seems childish.

It's being done by Muslims, in the name of Islam, with the blessing of and, often, at the direction of the state.

The Holocaust was done by Christians (including Hitler) with the support of the State and the church... So what is your point again?

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=32742656&postcount=23