Holy Esphigmenou Monastery

[Oblio]

I will say though, before you judge us as crazy schismatics, why don't you go meet some of the GOC bishops, monks, and priests, and see how crazy they are.

Why ?, I belong to the EO Church, I'm fine where I am at. The business referenced in this thread is above our pay grade.

Also I don't think I called the various plethora of schizmatics crazy, simply outside the Church, the same as Catholics and Protestants.

 

[jckstraw72]

Going to Mass is not praying with them. You have yet to give evidence of anyone praying with heretics in the context of the Holy Canons of the Church.

in my Antiochian prayer book in the preparation for confession section, it says to confess if I have frequented the religious meetings of heretics or schismatics. I'm supposed to confess if I simply ATTEND their meetings.

from what I read, if i understood it correctly, the EP attended Papal High Masses and took part in serving them. Whether or not this includes the actual consecration I am not sure. I posted the same about the Patriarch of Antioch concelebrating with a Melkite Bishop, and that the Antiochian Patriarch has officially recognized the mysteries of the Jacobite Church since 1990. This is the kind of stuff OIT is talking about I do believe.

Again, I am not attempting to justify schisms, or say who is and isnt schismatic.

 

[jckstraw72]

LOL Being in Communion would be to actually make a statement that the entire church recognizes the Sacraments of the RC Church and that RC's are aloud to Commune in EO churches Vice a versa. They are still in schism.

that makes sense. twas just curious. i wasnt trying to say we're in communion with Rome, just wasnt sure how the whole situation works out. so what did it actually mean to lift the anathemas then? how did this change anything?

 

[Oblio]

in my Antiochian prayer book in the preparation for confession section, it says to confess if I have frequented the religious meetings of heretics or schismatics.

Of course what the Antiochian prayer book says to do is a guide, ultimately it is your Bishop that sets the rules. That being said, taken literally, you will need to confess this meeting, for at least one person here is a schismatic.

 

[Greg the byzantine]

that makes sense. twas just curious. i wasnt trying to say we're in communion with Rome, just wasnt sure how the whole situation works out. so what did it actually mean to lift the anathemas then? how did this change anything?

It was a symbolic gesture to show that the churches have no grudge between each other, and to open official dialogue between the two churches which hadn't happened since the Schism.

 

[Oblio]

And besides, Antiochians are schismatics too, according to the 'traditionalists'

 

[MariaRegina]

In that sense, we are all schismatics.

 

[repentant]

Basically you all are argueing over something none of you really have no idea about..

but about this..

While Esphigmenou is ranked eighteenth among the twenty monasteries on Mount Athos, it withdrew its representative from the Holy Community in 1974 and does not take part in the assemblies of the Community. The withdrawal by the monks was precipitated by a break with the Ecumenical Patriarch for violations of the doctrines of the Church in regards Patriarchate relations with non-Orthodox, particularly the Roman Catholic Church. The abbot, Methodius, stated that the monks of Esphigmenou Monastery do not want some fifteen million euros that was offered by the European Union to the monastery, noting that offers of such large amounts of money surely are made in the expectation of receiving something in exchange.

Perfectly acceptable. If they "believe" notice the quotations..that an EP or any Bishop is in heresy, or anything of the nature, they have a right to protect themselves and cut ties. Also about accepting money from the EU, this was not uncommon on Athos. Elder Ephraim, back when he was Elder of Philouthou Monastery, he did not accept the money either. Reason being, when the EU decides they want payback, what happens? They run the Monastery and unfortunatly Mt. Athos. Athos will be a tourist attarction one day, and women will be allowed on. The the true Monks and ascetics will be lead to a new Mt. Athos where the AC will never be able to set foot. Read St. Kosmas..


From the Esphigmenou Monastery website, there side of the story..

The fathers of Esphigmenou struggle against the heresy of ecumenism which states that there is no one church which possesses the Truth. The Orthodox Church believes, as the monks of Esphigmenou Monastery believe, that the Church has never lost the Truth or its unity. The Nicene Creed states the Orthodox Church’s dogmatic basis, “I believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I believe in one baptism.” Ecumenism rejects these fundamental truths of the church by teaching that there are many churches and many baptisms.

The beliefs of ecumenism and the beliefs of Orthodoxy are mutually exclusive. You can either believe in the Creed or you can believe in ecumenism, not both. By embracing ecumenism Patriarch Bartholomew has embraced a belief in conflict with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. This is what the monks object to and what they wish to discuss with the Patriarch. There is not a single saint of the Church, ever, who believes in what Patriarch Bartholomew teaches and practices with regards to ecumenism, and this has caused great concern on the part of the monks. The Patriarch refuses to allay those concerns and refuses to engage in constructive dialogue with the monks. He has, however, demanded an apology in writing for questioning him.

The EP demanding an "apology for questioning him" sounds like he thinks he's infaliable...

Also a few tidbits about Esphigmenou..

It is considered as one of the most strict cenobitic monasteries of Athos.

Its last three abbots, have been recognized as holy saints by all on Mount Athos. The present abbot Archimandrite Methodios, was hand picked by the last abbot, to lead this monastic stronghold of ascetical Orthodoxy.

Also the Monastery is under the EP's jurisdiction, they are not under the GOC or any other shcismatic jurisdiction..

 

[EricTheRed]

So who OWNS it. Like has a legal document saying they own that monastery

 

[repentant]

It's not about who owns it, no one owns the Church..

 

[jckstraw72]

oh snap sounds like we might get into the Possessors vs the Non-Possessors!

 

[Oblio]

Also the Monastery is under the EP's jurisdiction, they are not under the GOC or any other shcismatic jurisdiction..

So they are in open disobedience to their Bishop ?

They run the Monastery and unfortunatly Mt. Athos. Athos will be a tourist attarction one day, and women will be allowed on. The the true Monks and ascetics will be lead to a new Mt. Athos where the AC will never be able to set foot.

Conjecture.

 

[jckstraw72]

So they are in open disobedience to their Bishop ?

but they will point to Canon XV of the First-Second Council in this instance:

But as for those persons, on the other hand, who, on account of some heresy condemned by holy Synods, or Fathers, withdrawing themselves from communion with their president, who, that is to say, is preaching the heresy publicly, and teaching it bareheaded in church, such persons not only are not subject to any canonical penalty on account of their having walled themselves off from any and all communion with the one called a Bishop before any conciliar or synodical verdict has been rendered, but, on the contrary, they shall be deemed worthy to enjoy the honor which befits them among Orthodox Christians. For they have defied, not Bishops, but pseudo-bishops and pseudo-teachers; and they have not sundered the union of the Church with any schism, but, on the contrary, have been sedulous to rescue the Church from schisms and divisions."

so its not so cut and dry

 

[Vasileios]

How sad this whole situation is... The Old Calendarists in Greece started with very good intentions (and perhaps were more correct with their insistence to stick to the old calendar). However, since then they have developed into super correct zealots and quickly enough they broke communion with the canonical churches.

It is sad that they think themselves more correct than every other Church in the world that kept communion with the Greek Church. Today they are the super correct zealots who border on the cultish side, and I know because I live in Greece and they are causing major troubles. In essence what is happening today is that every bishop or priest that for one reason or the other has been defrocked in the Greek Church gets accepted in the Old Calendarist church and they have gathered a very vast number of unfortunate cases indeed. Many are made bishops (they have tons in Greece).

And greek trash tv (and not only), all pious of course (I'm being ironic) love to get ahold of stories of male models turned bishops (below the age of thirty no less!), monasteries that have huge fights with parents etc, etc. Trouble is they forget to mention that 90% of these stories come from the old calendarist church priests, bishops and monasteries, which of course look identical to the canonical church. Greeks today, we are mostly ignorant and lukewarm and these get people VERY much scandalized. This is very damaging to the church needless to say...

There is of course a great deal of good people in that schismatic group. many of them wish to return and indeed some have, priests too who received a proper ordination.

But the case of the Esphigmenou monastery is a thorny one, because obviously having a monastery in Mt. Athos gives HUGE credibility and prestige and the monks there have the backing of the full community of old calendarists. They will not leave. The last attempt of forcing them out was a last resort kind of thing, after thousands of pleads from everyone, INCLUDING THE REST OF THE 19 MONASTERIES. Now, I dont know how the eviction force came to be, I dont know what the orders from the Patriarch were and I will ask a bishop I know who knows the EP personally. I do know that quite a few in the canonical church in Greece did not like the whole incident anyway (dropping to their level-and I am not slandering here, there are numerous cases of violent behaviour outside Mt. Athos from the Old Calendarists).

I do know for a FACT that monks from the other monasteries in Mt. Athos consistently warn against the Esphigmenou monks and do not appreciate what they are doing at all. I will ask about the previous three abbots and their holiness and how the whole thing got started.

However, I feel I must point out that the EP is receiving unjust comments and this is not new. From the time of Athenagoras (who has a very bad reputation, the Lord forgive me) the EP is slanted that it is ecumenist ever since. Well, Patriarch Bartholomew is definitely NOT ecumenist. When he visited Rome to receive the relics of St. John Chrysostom from the RC Church (who dont think anything special about them! HA!), he also accepted a church that was formerly used by the catholics, as there is much growing interest in Orthodoxy in Italy. Well, this "ecumenist" Patriarch, in front of the cardinals there and other catholics performed the consecration of the church, and myrrhed the altar. This was viewed very much as a gesture (that he did it openly in front of them to make a point) that the Orthodox still view the RC as schismatics and invalid.

And once and for all. He has never concelebrated the Eucharist with the RC Church. Ever. Nor of course given the Eucharist to catholics.

Most of all, I am very saddened with the attacks against the EP because he already is STRUGGLING in Turkey to keep the Orthodox Churches open (according to a convenient law for the Turks a church must have a DL every day in order to remain open), to have extreme fanatical nationalists islamists threaten his life on a daily basis, burn or hang straw images of him outside the Patriarchate etc, etc, etc...

And naturally, as we Greeks are champions in shooting our own foot, the most loud voices against the EP come from inside Greece! I could go and on about the wretched church politics and games that are played but I fear I have already damaged my soul and yours enough.

Lord have mercy on us all, the enemy is rejoicing with these tragic situations...

I hope I wont comment anymore on this unless I have some information about what actually took place and about the three abbots...

Please, everyone forgive me and say a prayer for me, cause I think this is the most unprofitable post I have ever made.

 

[jckstraw72]

Please, everyone forgive me and say a prayer for me, cause I think this is the most unprofitable post I have ever made.

i would not worry Vasileios. I think its good to get all sides of the story out there.

 

[repentant]

No Vasileios it was a good post. I myself still do not view them as schismatic just because they oppose an idea they believe the EP has. Which may or may not be true.

And Oblio to answer your question, no they're not.

 

[Oblio]

Well, then who is their Bishop ? We've had at least two answers to that question

 

[jckstraw72]

Well, then who is their Bishop ? We've had at least two answers to that question

what about St. Maximus the Confessor? I dont know his whole story, but didnt he place himself out of communion with several bishops?

 

[repentant]

Well, then who is their Bishop ? We've had at least two answers to that question

They are under the EP, and whoever is under him. They are not in disobedience they are in disagreement.

 

[jckstraw72]

It seems that in 1922 the Patriarchate of Constantinople deemed Anglican Orders to be valid, and many other Churches followed suit.

theres several encyclicals at the very bottom of this page http://anglicanhistory.org/orthodoxy/index.html

what should we make of this?