Holy Esphigmenou Monastery

[repentant]

Monks didn't say they were Martyrs..I said that. But what burden of proof do they need if they are being mistreated and left to die? I still want to know what makes them schismatic, can anyone answer this?

 

[Prawnik]

I would think that int he final analysis, it is the monks' responsibility to support themselves.

Anyway, anyone can be a schismatic, it's not that hard. If I set up a church that is theologically Orthodox, but is not under any canonical Bishop, congratulations, I'm a schismatic.

 

[Oblio]

Is everyone aware that in our not so distant future, that the True Church will be considered schismatic by the "Originaztional Church"? What I mean is, the Churches that refuse to follow the EP and other's into this false Ecumenism with the West, will be considered schismatic, although the schismatics will be True Orthodoxy...just thought I would throw that out there..

Well, I see the finger has been pointed, with the added marker of the term True Orthodoxy (tm). And on what do you base this 'prophecy' ?

If a group of Orthodox set up camp (with our permission) on our church property, and later decide that they will defect from the OCA (and those she is in communion with), and yet refuse to leave, are they oppressed ? What if we lock our gates, and disconnect their water and refuse deliveries of food and supplies, but allow them to peacefully leave at any time and go away ? And they stay and starve to death. Are they martyrs ? Hardly, they are simply trespassers stubornly protesting and starving themselves. Sounds a bit more like suicide to me.

 

[jckstraw72]

If a group of Orthodox set up camp (with our permission) on our church property, and later decide that they will defect from the OCA (and those she is in communion with), and yet refuse to leave, are they oppressed ? What if we lock our gates, and disconnect their water and refuse deliveries of food and supplies, but allow them to peacefully leave at any time and go away ? And they stay and starve to death. Are they martyrs ? Hardly, they are simply trespassers stubornly protesting and starving themselves. Sounds a bit more like suicide to me.

thank you for presenting another way to look at this issue

have they officially defected, like with an official statement or something, or is it just that they dont care for the EP. i read somewhere that they tried to meet with him to talk about their concerns, but that he refused.

 

[silouanathonite]

Can anyone answer repentant's question? I would also like to know what they are doing that causes them to be schismatics. What is the theological disagreement. No one has answered that question yet.

 

[Oblio]

I believe one of the issues (for Esph.) is the fact that members of World Orthodoxy (tm) have met with the RC Pope, and even, horror of horrors, lifted the mutual anathema's of 1054.

 

[Oblio]

I would also like to know what they are doing that causes them to be schismatics.

Separated themselves from communion with canonical Orthodoxy

 

[Oblio]

While Esphigmenou is ranked eighteenth among the twenty monasteries on Mount Athos, it withdrew its representative from the Holy Community in 1974 and does not take part in the assemblies of the Community. The withdrawal by the monks was precipitated by a break with the Ecumenical Patriarch for violations of the doctrines of the Church in regards Patriarchate relations with non-Orthodox, particularly the Roman Catholic Church. The abbot, Methodius, stated that the monks of Esphigmenou Monastery do not want some fifteen million euros that was offered by the European Union to the monastery, noting that offers of such large amounts of money surely are made in the expectation of receiving something in exchange.

from orthodoxwiki

The monks there have broken with the Patriarchate of Constantinople over what they decry as violation of the doctrines of the Church, with regards to the Patriarchate's ecumenist policy and its relations with non-orthodox Christians. In 1972, they raised black flags to protest against the meeting of Patriarch Athenagoras I of Constantinople and Pope Paul VI, where both parties lifted mutual excommunications exchanged during the Great Schism of 1054. The monks have found themselves under threat of eviction from their monastery under the administrative rules of the Athos community.

from wikipedia

 

[silouanathonite]

What if those who are considered to be "canonical" are in heresy. Saint Mark of Ephesis(I could be wrong) refused to let the Church be Latinized even though the other Bishops would have allowed it. Would he have been a schismatic. If I am wrong about this, please forgive me.

 

[Greg the byzantine]

What if those who are considered to be "canonical" are in heresy. Saint Mark of Ephesis(I could be wrong) refused to let the Church be Latinized even though the other Bishops would have allowed it. Would he have been a schismatic. If I am wrong about this, please forgive me.

Is the Patriarch Latinizing the Church? NO!

 

[silouanathonite]

I wasn't defending or going with the monastery. I don't know enough about that issue. I was making a point about seperating from canonical Orthodoxy. Latinizing the Church is not the heart of the example I gave. It's going along with something that isn't what was delivered to us by the apostles even if the majority of those. within the Church go along with it. Also, I'm not trying to bring an argument, I am just asking a question. Forgive me for being a softie, but the capitalized letters implies yelling and I don't like yelling. If I have accused wrongly , that is my sin, and forgive me.

 

[Oblio]

Who is their Bishop ?

If their charges are true (and I have seen no evidence that they are), I believe there are proper procedures to follow. I also believe that their approach is not one of those procedures. IMO, their actions, and rhetoric, have all the marks of those who in the past have fallen away from the Church. ROAC, ROCiE, TOCoG et. al.

 

[silouanathonite]

I agree that proper action should be taken also.. They haven't done so and if what the monastery is doing is true, then the Bishop should also react. I have another question. Are all the monastery on Mount Athos Orthodox Monasteries. Do they have an RC monasteries on Mount Athos?

 

[Oblio]

Are all the monastery on Mount Athos Orthodox Monasteries.

Yes.

Do they have an RC monasteries on Mount Athos?

No. In fact if a RC wishes to visit and attend services, he must remain outside the nave in the narthex, or even the exonarthex, which often is like being in a completely separate structure. I personally witnessed this.

 

[prodromos]

There are many Old Calendarist Monasteries throughout Greece who would welcome the monks from Esphigmenou. The monastery is not their property but is under the jurisdiction of the EP. They have been told to leave but they refuse to do so. They want to have their cake and eat it too.

 

[jckstraw72]

Is the Patriarch Latinizing the Church? NO!

while it may not constitute a Latinizing of the Church, the past 3 EPs have all concelebrated Papal High Masses, which seems pretty strange to me. Also, from what I understand, the monastery tried to dialogue with the EP but he refused, but I'm sure most reports about this are going to be biased in one way or the other.

 

[Oblio]

the past 3 EPs have all concelebrated Papal High Masses

Concelebrated, or attended ? There is a huge difference.

 

[jckstraw72]

Concelebrated, or attended ? There is a huge difference.

i mean concelebrated, since the anathemas were lifted. somewhere i had seen a page that had a good bit of detail about this. i will try to find it again.

i also came across this: The Melkite Catholic Patriarch and Antiochian Orthodox Patriarch recently concelebrated a liturgy together (Feb 6, 2004). and i believe i als read that the Antiochian Patriarch officially recognized hte mysteries of the Jacobite Church.

Please understand though, I am not saying any of this justifies schism.

 

[OIT]

What are the Monks doing that the EP doesn't like? My opinion, they are modern day martyrs...unless other evidence of heresy can be shown. But still we (Greek goverment and the EP) should not be treating anyone like that, Orthodox or not. It's not Christian.

I agree; why does the EP care about one Athonite Monastery? He has 19 others under him (more than earlier this century, when none of the Monasteries commemorated the EP). This is why I don't get that known heretics (the Pope) are treated with more respect than the fathers of Esphigmenou. Either way, no one should be treated with disrespect, but especially, why treat monks like this? Why not let them live their lives in peace?

 

[OIT]

Just because they are being mistreated does not mean they are not schismatics and in the wrong WRT the disagreement with the rest of canonical Orthodoxy on Athos.

FWIW, when I visited Athos, I was told by my spiritual father, a pious Hieromonk, to avoid them.

How do you explain that all the monasteries at one time resisted the EP for the New Calendar change and Ecumenism (including Elder Joseph the Hesychast and Elder Ieronymos of Aegina, both whom I have seen people who belong to New Calendar Churches cite quotes from)?

And for those of you who think the Old Calendarist movement is a small group of wackjobs, who want power, look at these pictures: http://www.omologitis.org/main_pag/English/archives/photo.htm

I highly doubt that many people were all crazy.