Holocaust

[DArceri]

It's not only the Catholic position, but it's also the position of the Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans-Episcopals, Calvinists-Reformed, Methodists, among others....

Yes...I knew it was the Catholic position, I just wanted to see if Mezza had another thought about this topic since his dislike for the Jewish nation is quite evident plus he seems to think all non-Catholics and non-christians are considered saved if they just believe Jesus exists as man and prophet only. His icon shows he is Catholic and this clearly is not Catholism....... If I'm wrong Mezza, please forgive and correct me. I'm just trying to figure where your coming from.

Christ restored Israel by calling out its holy remnant to be his apostles and the Pentecost church. They are the true descendents of Abraham, and we are grafted into that.

Interesting. Don't understand how Satan is bound or how nations are supposedly not being decieved but that is for another thread I guess.

 

[DArceri]

God has basically two distinct "wills", a "sovereign will" and a "moral will".... God has a "moral umbrella" that He warns us to stay under. If we choose to go outside that "moral umbrella", we will suffer the moral consequences. That does not mean we will lose our grace, it just means we suffer. But it is still a choice we make everyday. God's Soveriegn will....TOTALLY DIFFERENT. God chooses who He chooses. God ALLOWS evil into someones life if He chooses to (ie. Job).

An example of a moral consequence would be if you chose to cheat on your taxes and got caught. God did not will that to happen. That was a stupid choice you made. If you get caught you will suffer that consequence. In other words, choose to sin choose to suffer. Now, compound that by all the other stupid choices non-beleivers and beleivers make with regard to moral choices. That is why we suffer. This does not take away from God's overall Soveriegnty in any way.

Another example is weather patterns. If a tornado comes by and kills people in its path, that was not God's will. Yes, God can certainly create natural disasters if He wants to, however, that doesn't mean He desires (wills) to use that method. The bible never teaches that God creates all natural disasters in the world. The bible does state that when the "fall of man" happened, the earth fell with him ("creation groaned"):

note: creation = earth in the verses below....

Rom 8:18-22
18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.



That being said, God does work in mysterious ways in our world daily. The bible promises that whatever happens in the world, God can take that and work it for good (ROM 8:28). That is the basis of our faith and hope and ability to cope with a "broken" world. There is nothing that is beyond God's power to redeem and use for His purposes.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Interesting. Don't understand how Satan is bound or how nations are supposedly not being decieved but that is for another thread I guess.

A bound animal can be more dangerous than a loose one.

But more importantly, Christ has won the victory over death and sat down at the right hand of the father. The rule that Christ has now emminants from heaven and spreads from there to the rest of all creation; of which our planet is a tiny little part.

The kingdom has already come, but not yet in its fullness. But Satan is being bound, as Christ expands his rule through people coming into the earthly reflection of the kingdom, his church.

I totally see why you would react to Mezza the way you did. He and I have had a few discussions in the past and his blinding hatred of Israel makes it impossible to discuss the matter.

I support Israel as a nation-state and as an American ally. But I also do this as one of those 'evil replacement theologians' who thinks that Israel's history came to its definitive climax in the person and work of Christ and in Pentecost- that the believing remnant of Israel was already restored from spiritual exile through the resurrection and outpouring of the Spirit onto that remnant at Pentecost, and that we Gentiles are simply granfted into that restored Israel.

It's not replacement theology so much as restoration theology, or remnant theology. Or, as so many call it, covenant theology.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

In advance I would like to explain that my question here is in regards to a debate I am having with my atheist friend.

Why didnt God stop the holocaust from happening?

I am versed in this subject adequately but need some help formulating a much better response. Any and all help is appreciated.

Thanks.

Interesting thread! LLOJ subscribes

 

[New_Wineskin]

In advance I would like to explain that my question here is in regards to a debate I am having with my atheist friend.

Why didnt God stop the holocaust from happening?

I am versed in this subject adequately but need some help formulating a much better response. Any and all help is appreciated.

Thanks.

I see two reasons . One is to show how much illogical hatred main-stream "christianity" has had - still has - towards Jews and the lack of freedom that "christianity" has at the heart . The second is to lead some remnant back towards the land promised to them .

 

[Jpark]

Never mind.