Holiness

[from scratch]

If Abraham didn't leave his home or put Isaac on the alter then his faith wouldn't be very faithful.
No, my faith doesn't tell me to do anything that the bible says , it tells me to do anything that Jesus and His apostles say, and i have made that as clear as can be. If God tells us to do anything by his Son Jesus and His apostles and we listen, then its because we have faith in Jesus, not because we don't. Do you like to argue or something?

Great! Did Jesus tell you to keep the law? With or without any reason.

 

[Fotina]

from Divine Liturgy:

"People:
One is Holy, one is Lord, Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen."


GOD AND HOLINESS

It must be stated at the beginning that the only true "saint" or holy one (Hagios) is God Himself. The Bible states "For I am the Lord your God; you shall name yourselves holy and keep yourselves holy, because I am holy. . . " (Levit. 11: 44; 19: 2 and 20: 7). Man becomes holy and "sainted" by participation in the holiness of God.

Holiness or sainthood is a gift (charisma) given by God to man, through the Holy Spirit. Man's effort to become a participant in the life of divine holiness is indispensable, but sanctification itself is the work of the Holy Trinity, especially through the sanctifying power of Jesus Christ, who was incarnate, suffered crucifixion, and rose from the dead, in order to lead us to the life of holiness, through the communion with the Holy Spirit. In the Second Letter to the Thessalonians St. Paul suggests: "But we are bound to thank God always for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because from the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit that consecrates you, (en agiasmo Pneumatos) and in the truth that you believe. It was for this that He called you through the Gospel we brought, so that you might possess for your own the splendor of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2: 13–14)."

George Bebis, Ph.D.
Holy Cross School of Theology
The Lives of the Saints — Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

 

[11822]

Great! Did Jesus tell you to keep the law? With or without any reason.

God told me to follow anything Jesus and His apostles say to follow. Does that make me a legalistic enemy of the Cross? I don't like hearing people shout from the rooftops that following the Sabbath makes someone an enemy of the cross because its wrong. I learned that from the apostles. Its not legalistic, its biblical.

 

[from scratch]

God told me to follow anything Jesus and His apostles say to follow. Does that make me a legalistic enemy of the Cross? I don't like hearing people shout from the rooftops that following the Sabbath makes someone an enemy of the cross because its wrong. I learned that from the apostles. Its not legalistic, its biblical.

In its proper setting and covenant I agree. Testifying to the fact that one keeps the sabbath is one thing. To say that Christians are reequired to keep it is quite another.

 

[11822]

In its proper setting and covenant I agree. Testifying to the fact that one keeps the sabbath is one thing. To say that Christians are reequired to keep it is quite another.

According to what i have learned, i agree.

 

[from scratch]

According to what i have learned, i agree.

With the whole post? Are you sure?

 

[11822]

With the whole post? Are you sure?

I'm pretty sure.

 

[Rick Otto]

What is it?

I ask because some seem to say holiness and righteosuness aren't the same thing.

No one will see God without holiness and yet righteousness is discussed in Scripture to imply holiness? I think there is more than one meaning of holiness or being holy. What do you think?

I think there is only one meaning torighteousness.

yeah, me too.
I think they are intimately related.
Righteousness describes your ontological state (saved), holiness seems more to describe specific behaviors.

 

[Frogster]

Interesting how Paul here seems to see us as glorified, done already. Right in there with the past tense justified.

Rom 8:30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

 

[11822]

Interesting how Paul here seems to see us as glorified, done already. Right in there with the past tense justified.

Rom 8:30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

So what's the point you're making? Is it that we don't need to do anything to follow holiness because we're already holy?

 

[Rick Otto]

I think his point is that holiness won't make anyone righteous & righteousness doesn't make anyone holy.

 

[Kirjath-sepher]

yeah, me too.
I think they are intimately related.
Righteousness describes your ontological state (saved), holiness seems more to describe specific behaviors.

I agree.

Righteousness/ being holy are also shown in what one does too.

But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[11822]

I think his point is that holiness won't make anyone righteous & righteousness doesn't make anyone holy.

Ok

 

[11822]

I agree.

Righteousness/ being holy are also shown in what one does too.

But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

What confuses me a little about the definition of righteousness is even though we are declared righteous, the verse you posted seems to suggest that maybe we can do righteousness also. And the bible also says that all scripture is profitable in the instruction of righteousness. This seems to confuse the subject of righteousness a little. But it really doesn't matter i guess, we're instructed what to do and not do anyways, so definitions aren't really so important maybe. I don't know

 

[Rick Otto]

They are depending upon motive.
The confusion that bothers me more is between salvation & justification.

 

[11822]

They are depending upon motive.
The confusion that bothers me more is between salvation & justification.

Motive does play a part for sure i agree. It also suggests that we can be deceived into not doing righteousness when it tells us not to let any man deceive us. Salvation and justification seems easy, its in faith that we're saved. But then again faith without works is dead.

Well i'm sure as long as we serve the lord the way we're taught and know that only He saves us, we can rest assured.

 

[11822]

Having both faith and works it seems is the right way. Works being all good works i think. It includes the good fruit of the Spirit. My opinion is we shouldn't concern ourselves with each others religious practices as long as we have these things. I have struggled for a long time to come to this conclusion. Not sure if its right but i think it is.

 

[Kirjath-sepher]

What confuses me a little about the definition of righteousness is even though we are declared righteous, the verse you posted seems to suggest that maybe we can do righteousness also. And the bible also says that all scripture is profitable in the instruction of righteousness. This seems to confuse the subject of righteousness a little. But it really doesn't matter i guess, we're instructed what to do and not do anyways, so definitions aren't really so important maybe. I don't know

We know Christ is the righteousness of God.

While we were yet sinners (even without strength) He died for our sins and we are accepted in Him (who is also our strength) and who raised again for our justification. Paul speaks of their obedience being fulfilled. The gospel was preached just not all obeyed the gospel. Paul said he preached the obedience of the faith.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Obedience is encouraged, yes.

We are also filled with the fruits of righteousness which come by Christ (not of ourselves). It is the grace of God that teaches us to deny worldly and ungodly lusts (not to walk after them).

Paul said all who will live godly in Christ are they which are persecuted, not all who live ungodly. The mockers are of those walking after their own ungodly lusts.

Whereas the grace of God teaches us to deny worldly and ungodly lusts.

 

[11822]

We know Christ is the righteousness of God.

While we were yet sinners (even without strength) He died for our sins and we are accepted in Him (who is also our strength) and who raised again for our justification. Paul speaks of their obedience being fulfilled. The gospel was preached just not all obeyed the gospel. Paul said he preached the obedience of the faith.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Obedience is encouraged, yes.

We are also filled with the fruits of righteousness which come by Christ (not of ourselves). It is the grace of God that teaches us to deny worldly and ungodly lusts (not to walk after them).

Paul said all who will live godly in Christ are they which are persecuted, not all who live ungodly. The mockers are of those walking after their own ungodly lusts.

Whereas the grace of God teaches us to deny worldly and ungodly lusts.

Thanks. That's my understanding of it also. And i like your direct answers, clear and precise.

 

[from scratch]

yeah, me too.
I think they are intimately related.
Righteousness describes your ontological state (saved), holiness seems more to describe specific behaviors.

Good observation.