Holiness

[brinny]

LOL! even if it gets un-tame, let's bear it out....it's worth it....this subject of "holiness" was a real "stickler" for me....

 

[from scratch]

LOL! even if it gets un-tame, let's bear it out....it's worth it....this subject of "holiness" was a real "stickler" for me....

I'm still here.

 

[brinny]

hahahaaa! Yaaayyyyy!!!!!!

 

[brinny]

It has been edifying my brothers and sisters......i'm gettin' offline, but i'' be back....keep on keepin' on..

g'nite

 

[fhansen]

Can we delve into this a little bit more? For what is also written is that our "imprefections" are the very things that separated us from God. That is why we needed/need a Saviour....let's delve into this some more

Yes, good point. Whereas dogs and cats can't help but be perfectly who they are, humans and angels have the option of behaving imperfectly (of sinning) due to free will. And Jesus is telling us that we must strive for perfection, i.e. "sinlessness".

 

[JRSut1000]

Yup, those who endure to the end will be saved/receive the crown of life.

Enduring can be hard. I think of a runner in a race (scriptural illustration, yes?). His job is to keep running until he finishes to the line. Now most runners train hard and discipline themselves for the race. Rarely do we ever see runners trip up and even more rare do they run backwards! That would be silly! I think it should be that way for Christians. We are running the race going forward to win the prize. It takes discipline and choosing to keep focused on the prize. It should be a rare occurance when we trip up and when we do, we need to get back up again quickly! And never ever should we run the opposite direction!

 

[11822]

Amen.

 

[Nanopants]

True, true. Though it is often strange to see runners continue long after the race has already been won.

 

[fhansen]

True, true. Though it is often strange to see runners continue long after the race has already been won.

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.Phil 3:10-14


In John 8 Jesus told the woman that she was forgiven and not condemned. This speaks of the reconciliation of man with God, realized by the Atonement. He then told her to 'go, an sin no more'. This concerns our part, a part we cannot accomplish without Gods help, but one we must nevertheless strive for-if we want His help.

 

[Frogster]

Who sustains who?


1 Cor 1:8 who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.



jude 24 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,

 

[from scratch]

Yes, good point. Whereas dogs and cats can't help but be perfectly who they are, humans and angels have the option of behaving imperfectly (of sinning) due to free will. And Jesus is telling us that we must strive for perfection, i.e. "sinlessness".

Not much difference between dats and dogs, brothers and siters of the flesh or Spirit. Realitives are ususally the same as fish - after 3 days they both stink.

 

[Frogster]

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.Phil 3:10-14


In John 8 Jesus told the woman that she was forgiven and not condemned. This speaks of the reconciliation of man with God, realized by the Atonement. He then told her to 'go, an sin no more'. This concerns our part, a part we cannot accomplish without Gods help, but one we must nevertheless strive for-if we want His help.

Yes, paul humbly admitted that he did not always walk in resurrection power, as far as Phil 3 goes. No one is Jesus.


But...


Romans 8:31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised— who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?

 

[fhansen]

Yes, paul humbly admitted that he did not always walk in resurrection power, as far as Phil 3 goes. No one is Jesus.


But...


Romans 8:31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised— who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?

We don't disagree that we need God and His Son to save us. But this doesn't mean He doesn't use us in that endeavor-to use our persistence, our perseverance. IOW, we must still be vigilant, as the virgins with their lamps, we must still invest the grace given, as the servants with the talents. And, while God may know who will persevere until the end, we have no way of knowing, so this idea that God will see to it that the work is completed in us is absolutely true but it's largely an academic theological point for us-because we can't know absolutely who it pertains to.

And this is why there's so much stress in the gospels for us to do our part. You'd think they wouldn't bother at all with such language if there's no need whatsoever for our efforts but, the truth be known, there has to be an onus on man-to do what’s right-just like there was an onus on Adam & Eve. What we do counts, just like what Adam & Eve did counted. Everything in life is that way-and that’s the lesson man needs to learn-that He needs God, he must turn to God, and he should obey God out of love for Him and His goodness. And this can take time. And this is why we live in a world where this opportunity exists, the opportunity to learn of our needfulness. And this is why our Catechism teaches thusly:

396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die."276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represents that one thing we often find ourselves rebelling against-the idea that we have limitations, we're obliged, we owe our obedience to a superior authority, we can't get away with anything we want, we must choose and act rightly. While we're free to act outside of the nature God's given us we nonetheless do not have the right to do so.

 

[Nanopants]

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.Phil 3:10-14


In John 8 Jesus told the woman that she was forgiven and not condemned. This speaks of the reconciliation of man with God, realized by the Atonement. He then told her to 'go, an sin no more'. This concerns our part, a part we cannot accomplish without Gods help, but one we must nevertheless strive for-if we want His help.

As frogster already pointed out, there seems to be a contradiction here if we assume that this passage means that we must labor for our salvation.

Furthermore, it is stated in Philippians 3:9

"And be found in [Christ], not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith..."

So clearly this is not about obedience to a set of rules, or else the author would have contradicted himself. So what is he pressing on toward? The author explains that he wants to "know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death".

How else can we do this other than by taking up our own crosses and following after him? Again, everything else simply falls short.

Running doesn't do any good unless we're running for the right reasons.

 

[11822]

As frogster already pointed out, there seems to be a contradiction here if we assume that this passage means that we must labor for our salvation.

Furthermore, it is stated in Philippians 3:9

"And be found in [Christ], not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith..."

So clearly this is not about obedience to a set of rules, or else the author would have contradicted himself. So what is he pressing on toward? The author explains that he wants to "know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death".

How else can we do this other than by taking up our own crosses and following after him? Again, everything else simply falls short.

Running doesn't do any good unless we're running for the right reasons.

Arguing over who is running for the right reason doesn't help. Everyone is running for the right reasons.
Christ taught us to humble ourselves and to be meek and tenderhearted, to forgive each other and to not offend each other. Its also His will that we not walk according to the lust of our flesh but seek to be holy and walk in the Spirit. Why argue against this? It just causes division and contention, doesn't it? Can't we just agree that its Gods will? Do we need to fight about it? Lets just agree on what we were taught and love each other. Please.

 

[fhansen]

Furthermore, it is stated in Philippians 3:9

"And be found in [Christ], not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith..."

We can only begin to appropriate the righteousness of God if we first start believing in Him and His promises-all revealed most exhaustively by and through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That's the only meaning of faith here-it's the essential beginning of a restored relationship of man with God whereby God ultimately becomes the god of man again. It can't happen without grace, but it can't proceed from there without mans' response-first a response of faith, and continuing on from there to a closer and closer walk with God and obedience to what He guides us to do.

This is simply to say that man needs the righteousness of God-the righteousness God created for man, rather than mans' own, self-righteousness, which gets him into all sorts of trouble and doesn't please God even when it's utilized to attempt to obey His Law. We need the obedience that's prompted and aided by God, unto His righteousness.

As frogster already pointed out, there seems to be a contradiction here if we assume that this passage means that we must labor for our salvation.

So what is he pressing on toward? The author explains that he wants to "know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death".

Not sure where you’re going with this. Are you saying there’s an essential difference between salvation and eternal life?

 

[Nanopants]

I'm not disagreeing, I'm saying that we seek to be holy and to walk in the Spirit by following after him, taking up our crosses.

Peace and meekness should never be used as an excuse to cover up a serious error though. No ill will intended.

 

[Frogster]

We don't disagree that we need God and His Son to save us. But this doesn't mean He doesn't use us in that endeavor-to use our persistence, our perseverance. IOW, we must still be vigilant, as the virgins with their lamps, we must still invest the grace given, as the servants with the talents. And, while God may know who will persevere until the end, we have no way of knowing, so this idea that God will see to it that the work is completed in us is absolutely true but it's largely an academic theological point for us-because we can't know absolutely who it pertains to.

And this is why there's so much stress in the gospels for us to do our part. You'd think they wouldn't bother at all with such language if there's no need whatsoever for our efforts but, the truth be known, there has to be an onus on man-to do what’s right-just like there was an onus on Adam & Eve. What we do counts, just like what Adam & Eve did counted. Everything in life is that way-and that’s the lesson man needs to learn-that He needs God, he must turn to God, and he should obey God out of love for Him and His goodness. And this can take time. And this is why we live in a world where this opportunity exists, the opportunity to learn of our needfulness. And this is why our Catechism teaches thusly:

396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die."276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represents that one thing we often find ourselves rebelling against-the idea that we have limitations, we're obliged, we owe our obedience to a superior authority, we can't get away with anything we want, we must choose and act rightly. While we're free to act outside of the nature God's given us we nonetheless do not have the right to do so.

Ok, I understand what you're saying. But arent we supposed to read the gospels, through the eyes of grace? That's what Paul later elaborated on. We have to go by the full NT, and all the expanded revelation that unfolded.

In other words, look what Paul depended on, not himself. Did he work hard in his ministry, sure..amen. But where did the power come from?

1 Cor 15:10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

Col 1:29For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.

 

[11822]

I'm not disagreeing, I'm saying that we seek to be holy and to walk in the Spirit by following after him, taking up our crosses.

Peace and meekness should never be used as an excuse to cover up a serious error though. No ill will intended.

Jesus said that only those who do the will of His father are his brothers and sisters. Jesus said not everyone who calls Him lord lord will enter heaven. Cant we just agree on what we agree on? No one is teaching against justification and salvation by way of faith in Jesus alone. We can all read teaching about salvation through faith alone, but your argument seems to suggest we don't need to follow Jesus teaching, and some do just that, they never change, they never follow Jesus teaching, they just rest in grace and never change, Jesus warned them and we should warn them also. That warning made me fear God with a Godly fear, it spoke to my heart and told me that i must be a doer of the word and not just a hearer of it. I needed to hear that warning, freedom and salvation by faith alone didn't help me to seek to be a doer of the word, only these teachings below did that.




Jas_1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother



Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Frogster]

As frogster already pointed out, there seems to be a contradiction here if we assume that this passage means that we must labor for our salvation.

Furthermore, it is stated in Philippians 3:9

"And be found in [Christ], not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith..."

So clearly this is not about obedience to a set of rules, or else the author would have contradicted himself. So what is he pressing on toward? The author explains that he wants to "know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death".

How else can we do this other than by taking up our own crosses and following after him? Again, everything else simply falls short.

Running doesn't do any good unless we're running for the right reasons.

Good stuff..raised up with Christ, resurrection power was the answer for Paul Rom 6, Eph 2:6, Col 2:12, Col 3:1.


Good point, not by law, said in a clear juxtaposition in Phil 3.