Holiness Pentecostals: Why Does Everyone Hate Them?

ltwin

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I've actually just finished up a masters thesis on Pentecostalism and popular culture where I use David Wilkerson (and Jimmy Swaggart) quite often.

I don't actually see David Wilkerson as legalistic or judgmental. I think he feared (quite rightly in many ways) that the American church had become captive to the culture.

It's hard not to agree with him when you turn on Pentecostal/charismatic television and see so much thinly disguised pop psychology and conspicuous consumption. The American church has become obsessed with creating mega consumer churches for all the American consumers out there. It's a sad reality that evangelical Christians consume religion like we consume Walmart merchandise.

Wilkerson warned us many times over the years not to buy into the false idea that economic security could replace the "keeping power of Jesus Christ." He looked at the "seeker-sensitive" church growth movement and saw it for what it was "an American cultural invention" and a "Caucasian, suburban . . . adaptable gospel that is spoon-fed through humorous skits, drama, and short, nonabrasive sermonettes on how to cope." It's a capitulation to what Wilkerson called “gods of sports, pleasure, and lust” that were integral to the American lifestyle.

We need to remember that Wilkerson's ministry was not born out of ministry to middle-class suburbanites but to urban youth gangs and drug addicts. Wilkerson understood that the consumer church was not giving these people what they needed--Christ.

I'm not exactly sure how I feel about all of Wilkerson's prophecies. However, I do believe that whether he was inspired or just speaking from common sense, his calls for the American church to repent before the economic security on which it is built is taken away from it was wise counsel. In this time of prolonged recession, we have already seen a few high profile "prosperity gospel" churches fold and go bankrupt. If they survive long enough, the churches and ministers who hedge their bets on America's mass consumption, mass media driven economy and culture are one day going to reluctantly realize that they have built their ministries on sinking sand.

Quotes taken from a sermon that David Wilkerson preached to the Assemblies of God headquarters chapel service in 1998. The sermon was later published in the January 1999 issue of Enrichment Journal under the title "The Dangers of the Gospel of Accommodation."

And for the record, as I've already stated in this thread, I'm against Pentecostal legalism of all kinds.
 
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lightandglory

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Bible makes it very clear that if we continue sinning there will be no sacrifice that will save us.
We need to remind people this. Because now people actually go church after church they continue sinning and repenting every week, they say God's Grace will save them. They don't realize that God wants them to be Holy, this has nothing to do with legalism. When we get saved and receive Holy Spirit we have no excuse to be continue sinning.

Hebrews 10: 19-31
19 My friends, the blood of Jesus gives us courage to enter the most holy place 20 by a new way that leads to life! And this way takes us through the curtain that is Christ himself.
21 We have a great high priest who is in charge of God’s house. 22 So let’s come near God with pure hearts and a confidence that comes from having faith. Let’s keep our hearts pure, our consciences free from evil, and our bodies washed with clean water. 23 We must hold tightly to the hope that we say is ours. After all, we can trust the one who made the agreement with us. 24 We should keep on encouraging each other to be thoughtful and to do helpful things. 25 Some people have gotten out of the habit of meeting for worship, but we must not do that. We should keep on encouraging each other, especially since you know that the day of the Lord’s coming is getting closer.
26 No sacrifices can be made for people who decide to sin after they find out about the truth. 27 They are God’s enemies, and all they can look forward to is a terrible judgment and a furious fire. 28 If two or more witnesses accused someone of breaking the Law of Moses, that person could be put to death. 29 But it is much worse to dishonor God’s Son and to disgrace the blood of the promise that made us holy. And it is just as bad to insult the Holy Spirit, who shows us mercy. 30 We know that God has said he will punish and take revenge. We also know that the Scriptures say the Lord will judge his people. 31 It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God!
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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REPENT ----- TURN to YHWH

Turn around from a life of sin. (religious life or otherwise, turn to YHWH)

Holiness is "SET APART" to YHWH. Like YHWH. IN YESHUA.

REPENT. ----- By Faith, through Grace, Truly a Gift from ABBA in YESHUA.

The world, the world's churches, men everywhere, are sinful, and need to repent if they want to find life.
 
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OGM

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REPENT ----- TURN to YHWH

Turn around from a life of sin. (religious life or otherwise, turn to YHWH)

Holiness is "SET APART" to YHWH. Like YHWH. IN YESHUA.

REPENT. ----- By Faith, through Grace, Truly a Gift from ABBA in YESHUA.

The world, the world's churches, men everywhere, are sinful, and need to repent if they want to find life.
That was constructive...
 
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Andrea411

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Bible makes it very clear that if we continue sinning there will be no sacrifice that will save us.
We need to remind people this. Because now people actually go church after church they continue sinning and repenting every week, they say God's Grace will save them. They don't realize that God wants them to be Holy, this has nothing to do with legalism. When we get saved and receive Holy Spirit we have no excuse to be continue sinning.

Hebrews 10: 19-31
19 My friends, the blood of Jesus gives us courage to enter the most holy place 20 by a new way that leads to life! And this way takes us through the curtain that is Christ himself.
21 We have a great high priest who is in charge of God’s house. 22 So let’s come near God with pure hearts and a confidence that comes from having faith. Let’s keep our hearts pure, our consciences free from evil, and our bodies washed with clean water. 23 We must hold tightly to the hope that we say is ours. After all, we can trust the one who made the agreement with us. 24 We should keep on encouraging each other to be thoughtful and to do helpful things. 25 Some people have gotten out of the habit of meeting for worship, but we must not do that. We should keep on encouraging each other, especially since you know that the day of the Lord’s coming is getting closer.
26 No sacrifices can be made for people who decide to sin after they find out about the truth. 27 They are God’s enemies, and all they can look forward to is a terrible judgment and a furious fire. 28 If two or more witnesses accused someone of breaking the Law of Moses, that person could be put to death. 29 But it is much worse to dishonor God’s Son and to disgrace the blood of the promise that made us holy. And it is just as bad to insult the Holy Spirit, who shows us mercy. 30 We know that God has said he will punish and take revenge. We also know that the Scriptures say the Lord will judge his people. 31 It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God!

There remains no more 'sacrifice for sin, NOT no more forgiveness for sin…..

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For if we sin wilfully,.... Which is not to be understood of a single act of sin, but rather of a course of sinning; nor of sins of infirmity through temptation, or even of grosser acts of sin, but of voluntary ones; and not of all voluntary ones, or in which the will is engaged and concerned, but of such which are done on set purpose, resolutely and obstinately; and not of immoral practices, but of corrupt principles, and acting according to them; it intends a total apostasy from the truth, against light and evidence, joined with obstinacy.
After that we have received the knowledge of the truth; either of Jesus Christ, or of the Scriptures, or of the Gospel, or of some particular doctrine, especially the principal one, salvation by Christ; of which there may be a notional knowledge, when there is no experimental knowledge; and which is received not into the heart, but into the head: and whereas the apostle speaks in the first person plural, we, this is used not so much with regard to himself, but others; that so what he delivered might come with greater weight upon them, and be more readily received by them; when they observed he entertained no hard thoughts or jealousies of them, which would greatly distress the minds of those that were truly gracious. Moreover, the apostles use this way of speaking, when they do not design themselves at all, but others, under the same visible profession of religion, and who belonged to the same community of believers; see 1 Peter 4:3 compared with Acts 22:3. Besides, these words are only hypothetical, and do not prove that true believers could, or should, or do sin in this manner: to which may be added, that true believers are manifestly distinguished from these persons, Hebrews 10:38,

there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins; meaning, not typical sacrifice; for though the daily sacrifice ought to have ceased at the death of Christ, yet it did not in fact until the destruction of Jerusalem; but the sacrifice of Christ, which will never be repeated; Christ will die no more; his blood will not be shed again, nor his sacrifice reiterated; nor will any other sacrifice be offered; there will be no other Saviour; there is no salvation in any other, nor any other name whereby we must be saved. These words have been wrongly made use of to prove that persons sinning after baptism are not to be restored to communion again upon repentance; and being understood of immoral actions wilfully committed, have given great distress to consciences burdened with the guilt of sin, committed after a profession of religion; but the true sense of the whole is this, that after men have embraced and professed the truths of the Gospel, and particularly this great truth of it, that Jesus Christ is the only Saviour of men by his blood and sacrifice; and yet after this, against all evidence, all the light and convictions of their own consciences, they wilfully deny this truth, and obstinately persist in the denial of it; seeing there is no more, no other sacrifice for sin, no other Saviour, nor any salvation in any other way, the case of these men must be desperate; there is no help for them, nor hope of them; for by this their sin they shut up against themselves, in principle and practice, the way of salvation, as follows.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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That was constructive...


Simply a summary, a repeat, a re-iteration of what all the prophets and then Y'shua and then the emissaries sent by Yhwh (apostles) decreed spoke proclaimed from Yhwh.... the message of the GOOD NEWS
that as others starting with the OP in this thread have more fully explained, exclaimed, pointed out and disclosed.
>> churches haven't been teaching, preaching, nor living in repentance for quite some time now, although the Scriptures never changed; Yhwh's Decree never changed; the necessity of repentance never changed; the blessed hope by and in and through Y'shua of deliverance AFTER repentance never changed.....
what changed is people aren't repenting
nor living
life the way the Creator of all life gave instructions for and
provided through Y'shua for.
 
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FriendOfJesus916

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I'm a part of the Apostolic or UPC church and am a holiness believer. I don't believe that you must be a part of it to go to heaven, and I certainly don't think God is a respecter of persons but I believe it is important to dress yourself with humility.
 
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lightandglory

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There remains no more 'sacrifice for sin, NOT no more forgiveness for sin…..

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For if we sin wilfully,.... Which is not to be understood of a single act of sin, but rather of a course of sinning; nor of sins of infirmity through temptation, or even of grosser acts of sin, but of voluntary ones; and not of all voluntary ones, or in which the will is engaged and concerned, but of such which are done on set purpose, resolutely and obstinately; and not of immoral practices, but of corrupt principles, and acting according to them; it intends a total apostasy from the truth, against light and evidence, joined with obstinacy.
After that we have received the knowledge of the truth; either of Jesus Christ, or of the Scriptures, or of the Gospel, or of some particular doctrine, especially the principal one, salvation by Christ; of which there may be a notional knowledge, when there is no experimental knowledge; and which is received not into the heart, but into the head: and whereas the apostle speaks in the first person plural, we, this is used not so much with regard to himself, but others; that so what he delivered might come with greater weight upon them, and be more readily received by them; when they observed he entertained no hard thoughts or jealousies of them, which would greatly distress the minds of those that were truly gracious. Moreover, the apostles use this way of speaking, when they do not design themselves at all, but others, under the same visible profession of religion, and who belonged to the same community of believers; see 1 Peter 4:3 compared with Acts 22:3. Besides, these words are only hypothetical, and do not prove that true believers could, or should, or do sin in this manner: to which may be added, that true believers are manifestly distinguished from these persons, Hebrews 10:38,

there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins; meaning, not typical sacrifice; for though the daily sacrifice ought to have ceased at the death of Christ, yet it did not in fact until the destruction of Jerusalem; but the sacrifice of Christ, which will never be repeated; Christ will die no more; his blood will not be shed again, nor his sacrifice reiterated; nor will any other sacrifice be offered; there will be no other Saviour; there is no salvation in any other, nor any other name whereby we must be saved. These words have been wrongly made use of to prove that persons sinning after baptism are not to be restored to communion again upon repentance; and being understood of immoral actions wilfully committed, have given great distress to consciences burdened with the guilt of sin, committed after a profession of religion; but the true sense of the whole is this, that after men have embraced and professed the truths of the Gospel, and particularly this great truth of it, that Jesus Christ is the only Saviour of men by his blood and sacrifice; and yet after this, against all evidence, all the light and convictions of their own consciences, they wilfully deny this truth, and obstinately persist in the denial of it; seeing there is no more, no other sacrifice for sin, no other Saviour, nor any salvation in any other way, the case of these men must be desperate; there is no help for them, nor hope of them; for by this their sin they shut up against themselves, in principle and practice, the way of salvation, as follows.


I agree that there is still forgiveness.. But if you are repenting from your sins and continue doing them again and again when you know it is wrong to do, you are in trouble. So we need to repent and move on and not to do it again. for instance if you living with a person without marriage and if you deny to get marry when you know its sin to fornicate, you are in deep trouble. because you get comfortable with your sin. But if you repent and marry the person you will get saved.
 
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Andrea411

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I agree that there is still forgiveness.. But if you are repenting from your sins and continue doing them again and again when you know it is wrong to do, you are in trouble. So we need to repent and move on and not to do it again. for instance if you living with a person without marriage and if you deny to get marry when you know its sin to fornicate, you are in deep trouble. because you get comfortable with your sin. But if you repent and marry the person you will get saved.

I think you have it a little backwards…. two people living together without marriage. One gets saved, says ok… God will forgive me. God forgives but brings conviction…. till believer is changed…. they don't quit sinning and THEN get saved…. You get saved and then the Lord works the sin out of you…. or you will eventually grow cold and walk away from the Lord. Sin causes hardness of heart on OUR part, not on God's part. God is never surprised at the stuff we do nor is He overwhelmed by it. He knows it overtakes us and we have a choice… choose Christ and His way or choose our own way and go it alone.
I've been a Christian for 40 years, I have changed and will again, God has never forsaken me…. my face always turned toward HIm… not with my eyes on sin but on Him. He is able to break every bonds, every sin that so easily besets us….. as long as we have our eyes on Him.
Focusing on sin does not help people overcome it, focusing on Christ is what kills the sin nature. Forgiveness makes us love him more, not shame and condemnation…. those who are forgiven much - love much. We have to keep returning to him for forgiveness, if we stay in our sin, we will turn our faces away from Him…..
 
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lightandglory

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Well if you accept him and believe that he will change you of course you will change. my main point was "If you get comfortable with your sins" then you will not inherit in The Kingdom of God.

I don't see how you will sin after receiving the Holy Spirit. You should be Holy. Because with the power that Holy spirit has given us we can kill our desires. Turn away from our sins.
But as I told you if we get comfortable in sin there is no way...

Galatians 5:16-24
16 If you are guided by the Spirit, you won’t obey your selfish desires. 17 The Spirit and your desires are enemies of each other. They are always fighting each other and keeping you from doing what you feel you should. 18 But if you obey the Spirit, the Law of Moses has no control over you.
19 People’s desires make them give in to immoral ways, filthy thoughts, and shameful deeds. 20 They worship idols, practice witchcraft, hate others, and are hard to get along with. People become jealous, angry, and selfish. They not only argue and cause trouble, but they are 21 envious. They get drunk, carry on at wild parties, and do other evil things as well. I told you before, and I am telling you again: No one who does these things will share in the blessings of God’s kingdom.
22 God’s Spirit makes us loving, happy, peaceful, patient, kind, good, faithful, 23 gentle, and self-controlled. There is no law against behaving in any of these ways. 24 And because we belong to Christ Jesus, we have killed our selfish feelings and desires.
 
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Andrea411

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Well if you accept him and believe that he will change you of course you will change. my main point was "If you get comfortable with your sins" then you will not inherit in The Kingdom of God.

I don't see how you will sin after receiving the Holy Spirit. You should be Holy. Because with the power that Holy spirit has given us we can kill our desires. Turn away from our sins.
But as I told you if we get comfortable in sin there is no way...

Galatians 5:16-24
16 If you are guided by the Spirit, you won’t obey your selfish desires. 17 The Spirit and your desires are enemies of each other. They are always fighting each other and keeping you from doing what you feel you should. 18 But if you obey the Spirit, the Law of Moses has no control over you.
19 People’s desires make them give in to immoral ways, filthy thoughts, and shameful deeds. 20 They worship idols, practice witchcraft, hate others, and are hard to get along with. People become jealous, angry, and selfish. They not only argue and cause trouble, but they are 21 envious. They get drunk, carry on at wild parties, and do other evil things as well. I told you before, and I am telling you again: No one who does these things will share in the blessings of God’s kingdom.
22 God’s Spirit makes us loving, happy, peaceful, patient, kind, good, faithful, 23 gentle, and self-controlled. There is no law against behaving in any of these ways. 24 And because we belong to Christ Jesus, we have killed our selfish feelings and desires.

After being a Christian for 31 years the older you get the more you recognize what sin is…. I used to think it was smoking, cussing, drinking etc etc… the carnal stuff. Only when I was freed from that did I find out it was only a beginning. We spend a lifetime moving toward holiness… and finding the only holiness we will ever have is a gift … it was given to us. I will never be MORE saved than I was the first day I got saved.
I have the freewill to walk away but my salvation is not bc I am good enough. It is bc I recognize that Christ is the only One that is good enough. He in me.
If you think you can go the rest of your life without sin, you are a very young Christian about to live a very short life
God bless, andrea
 
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Digout

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There is a difference between legalism and holiness. We don't have to be legalistic to get to heaven. We do have to be holy. We don't have to be perfect, but if we are in Christ and Christ is in us, then we will be transformed into the image of Christ.

I have a problem with people who say you can live in sin and still get to heaven. I have heard advocates of Once Saved, Always Saved salvation go so far as to say that a person who said "the Sinner's Prayer" can commit murder, never repent, die, and immediately would be in the presence of Christ because all our sins are already forgiven, doncha know . . . <Whatever . . .>

The Bible is clear in Hebrews 10:26-31,

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Once Saved, Always Saved is a delusion.
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I'm not sure who everyone is...I can only speak for myself.

I don't hate any church or people.

I am leaving the pentecostal church I attended yesterday and for the last 24 years, because of the attitudes and practices.

1) Increasing emphasis on the flesh and a competition to see who appears more holy. LAM syndrome.
2) Increased mocking and insulting of other denominations, even from the pulpit.
3) Most notably yesterday a guest speaker touted by the pastor said numerous times that if anyone said that they did not gyrate as much as others because they were an introvert, they were a LIAR. He would also make other comments about people lacking in sanctification because they didn't run laps in the sanctuary and that others were looking and we should "compete" to be the loudest in worship.

I will not sit under this anymore.
 
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Spirit of Pentecost

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I attend a Holiness Pentecostal church. We believe and teach that once you have allowed Christ to clean up her inside, He will work on the outside. You're representing the Kingdom of Our Lord, so your outward appearance does matter, but I agree, that matters little when the inside is clearly a mess.
 
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The word hate is a very strong word to use here. First, I would like to address that the Word of God tells us that everyone (most especially the secular world) will know the Lord's disciples by the way we love one another (John 13:35). I take this in reference to a believer's genuine and noticeable love for both the sinner and fellow Christians.

In saying that, I was raised primarily in Baptist churches, but I eventually fell out of church and was as worldly as the rest of them for several years. As the Lord would have it, I repented, was baptized, and received the Holy Ghost in a traditional Holiness Pentecostal church. I love the pastor, his wife, their family, and my church family there as a whole, but I have never agreed with the all of their teachings on what holiness is and is not. Their love for God, the Word, the people (Christian or not) is undeniably real. They have been there for me on more than one occasion.

One thing that sticks out to me about traditionally strict Holiness Pentecostals is that they say what they about holiness is not legalism. I agree with them wholeheartedly, holiness is not legalism, but most strict holiness Christians have a mindset of holiness that is dangerously legalistic. While they may not always vocalize their thoughts that other Christians are not as holy as they are, their expressions and attitudes towards them definitely give that impression. I've been a victim of this myself. I have been in situations where stricter Christians have given "looks" in disapproval to other Christians because their standards or beliefs do not align with theirs. I have seen fellowship cease because standards change when understandings change, or not even begin because standards on holiness dotted and crossed differently.

In most cases (but most certainly not all), Christians with stricter beliefs on holiness have a vague spirit of pride, which the Word tells us is one of the seven deadly sins. I want it made clear that I am not against traditional holiness Christians or their views, but rather weary of the spirit that generally (but not always) comes along with their teachings. Of course, I am sensible enough to know that not all traditional holiness Christians will have a prideful spirit or holier than thou outlook, but from what I have been around, they more than often do have these two things in common overall, albeit in varying degrees.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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QUOTE="Brother Man, post: 72686689, member: 409785"]First, I would like to address that the Word of God tells us that everyone (most especially the secular world) will know the Lord's disciples by the way we love one another (John 13:35). I take this in reference to a believer's genuine and noticeable love for both the sinner and fellow Christians.[/QUOTE

QUOTE="Brother Man, post: 72686689, member: 409785"]While they may not always vocalize their thoughts that other Christians are not as holy as they are, their expressions and attitudes towards them definitely give that impression.[/QUOTE
================================

(if this works) Try to simplify and compare these two aspects together/ contrasting or supporting a certain outlook:
1st your point (yes, true point of Scripture) that outsiders will know Ekklesia are Jesus' disciple BY THE LOVE THEY HAVE FOR ONE ANOTHER. (not a common , not a normal every day kind of love as often seen in unbelievers, and even often seen in church goers, no - not that kind of love) ...

Believers and UNbelievers can see when people live as Jesus' followers , and when they do as Jesus tells them.

This means conversely that Believers and UNbelievers can ALSO SEE when they don't.

Right so far ?
 
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